AI, TEFL and what’s ahead

Euan (00:08)
welcome back again to I taught English abroad. And as part of series six, I'm really excited to say that we brought back some of my favourite guests. And it's not that I have to say that, but I think if I didn't say that, I might be in a little bit of trouble. I brought my employers with me, Jennifer McKenzie, Joe Hallwood, and for the first time appearing on the podcast, I've got Andy Healy. So Jennifer and Joe, it's great to have you back. Andy, you're here for the first time. For those who don't know, can you tell us a little bit about yourself and how long you've been involved with the TEFL industry?

Andy (02:29)
Yeah, sure. So I'm Andy Healy. I'm the managing director of the TEFL. A bit about me. I live near Bath in the southwest of England. My wife and I have three children, two of whom have flown the nest. I've got a dog called Wally. And yes, he is. I started here at the TEFL about two and a half years ago now. And prior to that, I'd spent the best part of 20 years working in media, specifically publishing magazines and websites for consumer brands. Popular names across a number of markets like cycling and sport and history and science and gardening, lots of specialist markets. So yeah, I did that for a long time and then kind of got a lot of experience within managing these brands and responsible for podcasts as well and for digital editions across a number of brands and e-commerce. So I've had quite a varied experience wearing lots of hats, like to keep a full plate.

And then Jennifer and I connected on LinkedIn, actually, and this role became available. And I sensed the opportunity and jumped in.

Euan (03:16)
That's fantastic. And again, if anyone's listening, I think we have talked about LinkedIn on the podcast before. But if anyone's listening or wondering about the power of networking, then Andy is living proof. So Andy, you've come at a really exciting time for the company. There's been some really, some wonderful stuff that's happened in the last, if I say it's happened in the last two and a half years, it sounds like it's all down to you. It's a team effort. No doubt you've played a massive, massive role in that. Joe, Jennifer, I want to hear your take on this.

If you can list some of the things that have happened in the last couple of years, because there's been some really, really exciting announcements. The TEFL Org's joined the ranks with some really big names and had some really, really outstanding recognition. Jennifer, tell us a little bit about the recent things that The TEFL Org has done.

Jennifer (03:53)
I suppose in the last two to three years, we got the Queen's Award for internationalisation. So that was really exciting. That was just sort of a start, maybe a move towards more nationally, internationally recognised awards. So we've got that. And then very recently, obviously, we've got our B Corp and very excitingly for hopefully most of the people in the team was Great Place to Work, which was a phenomenal result or award for us because it came from the people within, seeing how happy they are.

And hopefully, you know, with a happy team, we're in a position to make happy customers, which is one of our main goals as well, always have been. So I think these three have been, you know, a real move towards more international recognised awards that have gone with the growth of the company internationally. So I think it's matched up quite well.

Euan (04:42)
Absolutely. And maybe it sounds a bit simplistic, Joe, but what does it feel like when those awards arrive? When those kind of, those platitudes and those, that kind of acclaim comes the company's way? How much do you get to kind of celebrate it? Or is it always a case of, right, well, that's great, but it's on to the next thing?

Joe (05:24)
I can tell you how it feels when you don't win one. I'm not very good. (Very, very embarrassing. Never go to an awards ceremony with Joe) No. You don't win, it's like, you know. And so, yeah, it's always good to win awards. And, you know, and it's a reflection of all the hard work and, you know, the team does. And to have that external recognition, yeah, it's fantastic. But yeah, we don't; we don't like walk around the streets, you know, holding the awards up and patting ourselves on the back. But yeah, absolutely. And you always move on to the next thing.

Euan (06:11)
I mean, if I had to say, if I was, you know, if I was in your position, I'd be wearing medals constantly. But that's, I don't know, that's just me. So, Andy, kind of going back to your experience then, because you've had a really, you've had a fascinating and really varied career.

And I want to get your take on this, because I think we started in this industry around the same time. And it'd be really interesting to get your take. What was your kind of honest impression of the TEFL industry before you became part of it? Did you know anyone who taught English as a foreign language? And what were their experiences?

Andy (06:54)
Yeah, that's a good question. I did, I did know a few people because I was, I was reading English and Latin at university. And so I kind of had quite a few variations of people. I'm talking about TEFL at sort of career development days or, you know, students that I knew who were taking the course. And actually my sister did it, funnily enough, with us about 13, 14 years ago.

So I remember doing in her experience and she, she travelled around Europe and did a fair bit of teaching. So, I had quite a sort of a good understanding, good knowledge of it, mostly pretty positive, actually.

Euan (07:11)
Excellent. When, I mean, obviously you kind of imagine when it's a customer-based kind of a customer-facing business, you maybe imagine what a typical TEFL teacher is, or you certainly imagine what a typical customer is. You imagine what your customer base is, I think, I would imagine. And did you have any kind of person in mind or particular customer base in mind before you started working in the TEFL world, I guess? Like, and has that perception changed at all? Do you think, like, you know, the TEFL world is much more open and accessible than maybe you imagined it was? Or I just kind of want to know what your perception was and how that's changed, if it has.

Andy (07:36)
Yeah, sure. I think that's definitely changed in the, I guess, when I thought about TEFL teachers, I kind of assumed the majority would be sort of British English students. And I think that was clearly quite naive of me because it's a global enterprise, global endeavor. And you look at our business and 60, 70% of our students are from outside of the UK. That's one kind of misconception I had. I also thought, you know, the TEFL teachers were really exotic and really brave. It's quite an exciting place to be.

Euan (08:00
That's actually, that's a really interesting observation. Jennifer, Joe, I mean, do you think that the TEFL teaching base has become more international? Or do you think maybe it's just we're hearing more about how international it always was? Do you think it's more, maybe more reflective of what the actual, the actual landscape is, or do you think it's opened up?

Jennifer (08:20)
I think it's opened up because there was a bias against non-native English speakers. And I think that's largely changing, you know, with the growth of English language learning. There's certain nationalities that wouldn't, wouldn't have managed to get work as non-native speakers. But again, it's all, it's all based, it was all based on prejudice and biases. But I think now it is definitely growing for non-native speakers. But then obviously, when you're just a small company or you're sitting in the UK, you just think of the UK that speaks English as well, rather than considering there's many other English language countries.
It's a mixture of both, probably. But there was definitely a lot of bias against non-native speakers, which has thankfully disappeared.

Euan (09:12)
Joe, would you, would you agree? Would you say that bias is starting to kind of decrease?

Joe (09:15)
Yeah, for sure. You know, especially, you know, as English becomes really the lingua franca, you know, in business. And, you know, you can have a Spanish person speaking English to a Dutch person, you know, or a German person. And so, you know, it's, yeah, it just is the language. So why not having international English teachers? And it's definitely growing. It's definitely changed, especially with sort of online teaching.

Euan (10:09)
You bring me on very neatly to my next question, Joe. Because, you know, we talk about, or certainly this podcast is going to talk about kind of where the TEFL world is now, for TEFL in the future and what the industry is going to look like.

00:10:09
And I want to draw on something that we talked about, you know, before. The TEFL org was an industry leader and is an industry leader in all ways. But it was an industry leader in bringing courses online, very much at the forefront of that. And bringing a level of accessibility to the industry that just wasn't there. I'm just wondering, because since we spoke, I spoke to other TEFL teachers who talked about how online TEFL teaching and online courses, just there were so many people who were against it. And there were so many people who didn't see it as a legitimate form of TEFL teaching. I mean, how silly they look now. I just wondered, what was it like from your point of view as course providers?

What was the initial response that you got to online TEFL courses and online TEFL teaching? And what are people saying to you like, oh, no, this won't catch on or this won't be a factor?

Joe (10:44) Yes, certainly when online tutoring started. Yeah, so how possibly can you learn to be a teacher with an online course? You know, you need to be in the classroom and all this sort of thing. So you've always had a bit of resistance to online teaching. And certainly with the pandemic, almost overnight, people found themselves going online, doing all sorts of things that they would do in person before. And it suddenly just became a really quite an accepted form of learning and teaching.

Euan (11:35)
Jennifer, what was your kind of recollection of the kind of criticism and overcoming that kind of, I suppose, the naysayers and the people who are very much the sort of traditionalists I don't know, to that style of classroom teaching?

Jennifer (11:50)
I mean, you still have it where people say you need to go and do the specific course by specific providers that are classroom based. But the reality is, I think, you know, TEFL jobs now 50% of them are online. So if you can't learn online, then you're not going to be able to teach online would be one thing. But I think what we did was we went out and got as much accreditation as possible from good accreditors to show that our courses were equal to or to what level they were, you know, to an honest level, honest auditing from the accreditors.

You know, it's done every year or every two years depending on who the accreditor is. We've been accredited for 16 years. We're about 15 years accredited. It took a year to get the first accreditation roughly. And then we've just worked with accreditors since. So we've got quite strict guidelines that we have to adhere to. And all the accreditors have different types of guidelines. So the courses are really good. Online learning isn't for everyone, but we do try to make it as accessible as possible. And what we've seen is since the pandemic, we have less, we have fewer people. Sorry, being an English teacher, we have fewer people wanting to do classroom courses. And there's, you know, there's less uptake than there was in the past.

So, you know, I think people, it has, as Jo said, it's become a very accepted way of learning. So, yeah, so, yeah, they were all wrong. People do want to do online. And the very expensive classroom one-month courses now also offer their own version of online courses. So rather than us going their way, they move towards us.

Euan (13:38)
This next question, it's going to sound like I've got a chip on my shoulder and I'm kind of projecting through work. But I just, just to kind of carry on with this energy. Andy, I kind of want to bring you into this because, you know, working with you, I've definitely felt this energy of, you know, there's proving people wrong and bringing people into the conversation who feel that they've, you know, they've not had that access.

And, you know, I've spoken to loads of people for this podcast. You've told me about the critics and the naysayers that they face. Like we've said before, non-native English speakers becoming teachers. Career changers who are saying, 'Who are saying', yes, I can be a teacher. You're going to watch me become a teacher. People becoming, people overcoming all sorts of barriers. As a company and as representatives of this company, how does it feel when you confound critics or people who say it can't be done, 'X' can't be done? You won't be able to kind of plow into this field. How does it feel to sort of move into this, move into different lanes, whether it's, you know, where it's edX or whether it's, you know, finding different ways for people to be, to access courses or to pay for courses.

Or how does it feel moving into different lanes and kind of confounding when people either in the industry or wherever else say like, oh, this can be done. How does it feel to be able to do that? And Andy, I'll kind of come to you first on that.

Andy (14:43)
Yeah, I think, you know, you hit the nail on the head. I think that's really exciting. I, you know, I love being able to break down those barriers and I think it's one of the best things about what we do. We spend, you know, a considerable amount of time and energy talking to students and perspectives. We do a lot of research and we analyze the data and we try to get to the sort of the nub and understand why people might have concerns about starting out with TEFL and what the barriers might be.

And they might be, you know, financial; they might be just some, the feeling that, like you said, can I do it? I think that's a big one. It's a step into the unknown for a lot of people and that can be quite difficult. So, you know, we understand that and we try to make it as transparent, you know, from the outset as possible because, yes, it's going to be challenging. You know, it can be challenging, but we do make it fun. It's very interactive. We've got great tutors and customer service staff who, you know, they're on hand all the way until you've passed and way beyond. So, you know, we try to come at it from that perspective where we really understand what people are trying to do, what they want to achieve and the barriers they might face that are stopping them from achieving that. So, yeah, I think it's, that's the bit I think that is really exciting. You know, coming back to what Jennifer was saying, it's the accessibility now is also just sort of revolutionary. And I think you have to move with that, and it has to be something that we play into as a business because it works in everybody's favor. So, I think it's quite natural for us to sort of respond in that way. And to understand from a customer or student's perspective what the benefits are, and sort of how much more accessible and achievable it is. Because then that really helps us tap into potentially those fears and it helps us help them overcome them.

00:16:54
We're going to take a quick break, and we'll be right back with Jennifer, Andy and Joe.

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Euan (17:40)
And I'm back with Jennifer, Andy, and Joe.

Now, we're going to look at the future of the TEFL industry and every conversation about the future in almost every industry is going to be, depending on your point of view, either clouded or enhanced by the mention of probably the most notorious acronym in the world right now, AI. Now, whatever your point of view on AI, and I'm sure we'll get into that, there's no doubt that it's becoming very, very important. Part of how we work and how we live. So, you know, even since we had our last conversations for this podcast, Jennifer, Joe, it's come on leaps and bounds. There's no getting around it. And Andy, since this is your first time on the podcast, as someone with your career background in media and in the tech world, and you'll have your own thoughts on this as well.

I'll come to you first. How much of a threat or an opportunity is AI in terms of teaching English as a foreign language? And what do you see as the kind of major challenges, kind of off the top of your head?

Andy (18:39)
Yeah, I think what's more important with AI is the approach rather than the reality of what it may or may not deliver. Because I think it happens so quickly and you've all seen it can happen so quickly. And there's, you know, there tends to be a news article that's about something that is kind of groundbreaking and exciting and you dig into it a little bit and you go, you know, it's not that good. And then something else will come out and it will be quite exceptional.

And, you know, there'll be examples where AI will really, you know, destroy some parts of industry because perhaps it's just taking over what was before just sort of mundane sort of monotonous jobs that can easily be replicated by a machine. So I think it's, you know, it's a huge topic and it's many and varied in its applications. But for us, I think, you know, we come at it from the perspective of how do we use it as an enabler? How do we use it as an accelerator? And it comes with lots of well-known warnings. You know, if we think about it from the education side, it could be really helpful potentially creating a lesson plan for a new teacher, maybe. But, you know, it does come with that caveat of there can be inconsistencies.

And it does have a random tendency to make stuff up, which is kind of well reported. So you've got to be really careful about it. And I think there has to be that element of human interaction, which I believe is absolutely vital in sort of managing AI and ensuring that we're getting the benefit out of it. Because, you know, it will continue to develop and there will be, you know, incredible applications that will continue to come out. And we just need to be aware of it and stay abreast of those. And there will be challenges and there will also be really exciting things that perhaps will make it easier for people around the world to access our courses.

So, you know, there's lots of things that we look at and we continue to, like I say, just keep abreast of all of it and have a fairly clear-headed approach about how we either embrace it or, you know, put it to one side in particular parts of the business.

Euan (21:00)
Jennifer, Joe, is that kind of the perspective that you share on AI? I'm interested, like, how do you think you would have used it when you were starting out as TEFL teachers? Do you think you would have factored it in at all if you were starting out now?

Joe (21:15)
I don't know. You know, teaching is, certainly, teaching English is a very human endeavour. You know, language is, you know, distinctly human.

And I think, you know, there's always going to be a demand for real teachers and real tutors for our TEFL courses. And at the moment, you know, I don't think AI is good enough to, you know, fill or replace humans. But who knows what the future is going to hold? But I think there's always going to be a demand for, yeah, real people.

Jennifer (21:54)
I'd definitely have used it to make up lesson plans. Anything to make lesson plans easier. The skill will be in being able to give the right prompt to make the right lesson plan. So maybe that's something we should be teaching. But I think, you know, you have to make so many lesson plans in your life as a teacher.

But AI, you know, if it can create lesson plans and that you're confident on your, say it's a grammar one, so you really need to know when you're checking it, that I would still be checking it. I wouldn't have the confidence that it was giving me. But if I did most of the writing work and I was only doing the editing, that would be good. And you could go out in the evening and enjoy yourself and be fit for the morning.

Joe (22:35)
Lesson prep can be quite slow in the first year of teaching. Yeah, you do get good.

Jennifer (22:38)
Yeah, you do get good. You get better. And in our day, you're still having to sometimes cut things out and paste them on. So any of that would be amazing.

I'd have been a lesson plan making machine compared to how long it used to take us. Absolutely. But other than that, yeah. I mean, yeah, you need interaction. You need a human person, whether it be online or in the classroom, you know, who's helping you. And just for your language usage as well, so that you're using correct expressions and not just what you've learned in a textbook. It's not what you've got in spoken English. For any language, you know, what you learn in a textbook, it's not the same as the spoken. And you've got all the idiosyncrasies. It's all where the person, where your teachers come from, how they use language as well. So, you know, my kids in Greece had had a Scottish teacher before me.

And then they had me for three or four years. So their accent was pretty much a good Scottish, sort of Highland type accent. And that person was from Dundee. So, yeah, they would, you know, so you learn. It's the ability to learn. You've got to understand everybody's English. You know, it's not Received Pronunciation English that you're going to hear out there in the world, which or mid-Atlantic, whatever the triangle is that AI produces, that's not the English you're going to hear. So you do need real people.

Euan (24:04)
Obviously, I'm not going to insult the audience's intelligence or yours by, you know, having some grand debate about, I think anyone could understand the threat of the students being able to utilize AI to help with assignments and written work and that kind of stuff.

That almost goes without saying. I think everyone can understand that. But I'm just wondering, in your perspective, how worried we, as in, you know, practitioners, people within the TEFL industry, should be about AI being used to design low-quality TEFL courses? Because there are lots of shady, I almost don't want to call them TEFL course, you know, providers. Because, you know, I mean, we're talking about, like, unaccredited, very low-quality course providers who are scam artists, essentially. AI is making it a lot easier for people to earn a very quick buck by copying and pasting. You know, AI-produced TEFL courses. How can that be regulated? And how, you know, how has the industry reacted to that kind of threat? Is that something that's talked about? And how does the industry kind of police that?

Joe (25:11)
What we've done right from the start is, as we've mentioned earlier, about accreditation. And let's say I, you know, could apply for the accreditation and, you know, and consumers would just have to become more aware, a bit more savvy. Yeah. You know, our reviews are good, for example, you know, which is a really good way of making sure that you've got a good provider. But absolutely, the accreditation is, I mean, we've been here before, haven't we?

Jennifer (25:37)
Yeah, I mean, we had the voucher and the Groupon courses. So that was about 10 years ago. So it was PDF. Basically, PDF courses. They said we're online courses. You know, basically, if it sounds too good to be true, then it is too good to be true. You know, that would be a basic thing.

So as soon as you think you've got an absolute bargain, you're like, oh, it's most likely a scam of some sort. I think we were looking at someone in an internal chat last night was mentioned as someone who does operate scams. So Joe mentioned reviews. Reviews is one thing that this person has linked their new company, because their last one went bankrupt, to their old company's reviews. So even with reviews, you do have to be careful. Are they verified reviews? Are they actually for that company? So it is unfortunate, but it's the way of the world, I suppose, nowadays online is that you really have to be careful and really check thoroughly. Is it a listed company? No, not a listed company. What's it say? Company registration.

In any country, they'll have a company registration number. Has it got that? If you have got doubts, that would be the way to do. Do check the reviews. Make sure they are actually for the company you're signing up with. Everybody's got accreditation listed beside them. Check, is that real accreditation? Is it a real company, a real organisation doing accrediting? Regulation. There's no regulating body. It's really, unfortunately, going by the accreditation that people have, that's the nearest you've got. I think, yeah, unfortunately, it's just buyer beware, really, as much as many things are. I think, obviously, we're the best at our other online companies that are reputable, but you do need to just be really, really careful of all the details in relation to the company.

So, accreditation, have they got a company registration number, reviews for their actual site. Price is not too cheap. If it's very cheap, there's not going to be any quality. So, that would be my conclusion, the four things I would pick up.

Andy (27:55)
I was just going to kind of reiterate some of those points because I think they're really important. And what we know is from our general sort of understanding of the world is that there are scammers out there and there will be rip-off scenarios. And there always have been. And it's a broadly unregulated industry. So, accreditation is important. Reviews are important. I think reviews do an awful lot of heavy lifting for us in terms of assessing whether something is right or not, you know, as consumers.

But you're right, Jennifer. We've got to be careful about making sure that the reviews are actually legit. But I also think another important point is: what we do a lot of is we create a number of blog posts and really helpful content on the website about what to avoid, you know, and just things to be aware of. So, it's important to be aware that there are scammers out there. And like Jennifer says, if it sounds too good to be true, then it very likely is. But we try to do our best to help to educate people from that perspective.

Jennifer (28:55)
Just to add another thing in actually, just thinking, what we've been doing recently is actually with people that have been on our courses.

So, if you look at our social media, the work that's being done there, it's real people speaking to you about their experiences as well. So, I know the team have been doing a lot to do that as well. So, definitely look to whether they have, yeah, real people speaking about their real experiences.

Euan (29:22)
This has gone in a nice sort of positive curve, which is exactly what I hoped would happen. And it makes it much easier for me to ask you this next question. We talked a bit about some of the maybe more concerning trends, not just in the TEFL world, but in technology and education more broadly. It sort of takes me back to where we had a company meetup and there was a VR headset there.

And just thinking about that kind of inspired the next question. What kind of do you see as, what kind of positives? What kind of positive innovations and next moves do you see happening in the next two to three years in the TEFL industry? What were your kind of predictions? What do you see happening in terms of technology or innovation? Or certainly, what do you want to see in this sort of short to medium term? So, we can put a positive spin on this as part of the podcast, at the very least. Andy, I'll go to you on this first, because you've been involved in podcasts for such a large part of your career. And, obviously, you know, that's very much like podcasts. They're such a huge industry in themselves.

That's very much the sort of innovation field. Talk to me about what you see for this sort of short to medium term.

Andy (30:26)
Yeah. It's an interesting link, actually, because the success of podcasts is that it's a new way of taking on that media. As in, it became really, really important because people could commute. They could do the washing up and they could do some gardening and still be taking in information or entertainment. And, you know, it's there. They're obviously in the form of radio for a long time. But having podcasts allows people to create discussions like this, you know, where it's long form. You've got time to get into the nitty gritty. It's conversational and it works really well. And I think at the heart of that is communication.

So, it's how do we make communication, how do we sort of communicate more accessibly around the world? So, I think for me, the key is going to be accessibility. And it's a huge discussion for us. You know, we're always talking about how do we bring TEFL to different communities of people, potentially people who have disabilities, neurodivergence, you know, minorities, different territories around the world where it might be difficult to access the content. So, we think a lot about that and we think about how we can always kind of upgrade the accessibility software. We've also just announced a neurodiversity course. So, we're always thinking about how do we branch out and get more people involved in this because we rate it so highly as such an exciting career that we want as many people as possible to come in and join us.

Euan (32:01)
Fantastic. Joe, what would you, you know, tech innovations or just innovations in general, would you like to see over the next sort of two to three years, if you can?

Joe (32:09)
Apart from using these computer things. Well, we haven't touched on them. I'm not necessarily the best person to ask, but I guess, you know, we've had lots of new tech, you know, come in, you know, whether it's virtual classrooms or I know you sort of said something about VR headsets. And even with AI, you know, you have to be careful how gimmicky or short-lived or fad-dy these things are going to be. You know, because of all of our customers, you know, are traditionalists. You know, we're quite used to having customers that are, you know, they want to be in the classroom because that's what they're used to.

So, yeah, I don't know. I'm not sure.

Jennifer (32:57)
I'm going to be really ambitious. I think we need to have like avatar teachers. I think the next ABA type, we go down that route where we can form our own avatars and have teachers just standing in front of you. I don't know how that works. Just there explaining to you how to do it. Showing you how you would behave in the classroom.

Euan (33:22)
I was going to say you keep that in your back pocket, but we'll get even weirder than that. Don't worry about that. We're just going to take a short break and I'll be back with Jennifer, Andy, and Joe.

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Euan (34:09)
And I'm back with Jennifer, Andy, and Joe. Now, something that I write about a lot, just to peek behind the curtain for anyone who's listening to the podcast for the first time. I do also write content for the TEFL Org online. Cool for you to have a browse. Something I write about a lot is a demand for English worldwide. A part of that is writing country guides. You know, factors like the importance of English for tourism, for business. We talked about the lingua franca earlier on, which I used to accidentally write as lingua fraca. And Erin had told me that. She used to imagine businessmen fighting whenever I wrote that. Those factors, the reasons why English is so popular in the world. You can understand why more and more people are taking up English. It's an ever-increasing global interest.

Do you envision the popularity of English growing consistently over the coming decades, based on the uptake that we've had and the growth of the popularity of TEFL? Do you see business continuing to blossom as it has done over, let's say, the last 10 or so years? I'll go to Joe on that first.

Joe (35:19)
I mean, it all depends on the geopolitical landscape, doesn't it? But I would think it does, because it's an unstoppable, you know, it has an unstoppable momentum. You know, English has its life of its own. You know, English being spoken absolutely in the private sector throughout the world. And really, any sort of youngster growing up anywhere in the world will need to learn English. So I think it's only going to grow.

Euan (35:50)
Andy, what's your take?

Andy (35:53)
Yeah, I agree. I think, you know, we spend an awful lot of time thinking about our audience. And so we look at sort of the stats and the data and all the industry reports. And so I kind of get that. That's the statistical part for me. And I'm always really positive because, you know, like Joe says, there's an overwhelming momentum here in terms of English being the international language of business, of innovation, of science. And, you know, you can look at different stats and they'll tell you there's one and a half to two billion English language learners worldwide. And those people need teaching. And also just looking into the future. You know, all the forecasts that I see predict continued growth. So I think it's a very positive, positive place to be.

And there's always new sort of causes and new things that we can look at to sort of, I suppose, to answer the needs, the growing needs of English language learners worldwide. Whether that's, you know, business or kind of country specific or industry specific. Because you've got to think about the reasons why people are learning the language. And, you know, we have case studies and graduate stories from around the world and they're all really, really different. And their entry into this is always really, really different and quite surprising, you know, how very, very unique people's experiences are. But yeah, I think there's a continuing, what I find really exciting is that there's this continuing influx of people every year. And it doesn't stop. You know, there are always new graduates from university who want to go and travel. There are always people who want to change their career. Either because they've been, you know, made redundant or the company's folded or they just fancy a different, a different change. So, yeah, I think it's overwhelmingly positive.

Euan (37:50)
And just to kind of pick up the baton there, Jennifer, how big can the digital industry become in your view? Because it feels as though, and Joe and Andy have articulated that really well. It feels as though. Even though it's such a massive industry, based on kind of the writing I do and the research I do, it still feels like even though there are so many job opportunities, there's so much demand. It still feels like they're part of the world, parts of the world where there is that demand.

But there's just, it's just still not being met. There's still vast swathes of the world where English proficiency isn't quite where they want it to be. They still need a lot of English teachers. You know, there are government programs where they want to bring up standards to the extent where they want it to be. They want their country to be bilingual, with English being one of the key languages. The demand is still huge. And even though there are so many talented English teachers, the demand is getting higher and higher and higher. What's your take on how big it could be as an industry?

Jennifer (38:47)
I mean, I guess you could just turn round and saythe whole world wants to learn English, which is one thing. But as you say, it can depend on governments and how they want to progress with that. So not every government will want to employ foreign teachers. So that could be a limit. But if you want good fluency in your population, then you are going to have to have fluent teachers. You can't have non-fluent teachers, which does happen. China, for example, would be a good example where they want their teachers to teach English, but their teachers haven't been taught to a level to be able to then teach it. So you're not getting that pass on. Or you've got countries like Scandinavia where the level of English is, you know, it's more or less native level English. But that's generations of English being taught well. So there's a huge market out there.

I don't know who said, you know, it is geopolitical as to how much it can grow. You know, every year there's more people getting to an age where they want to learn English. So it's a continuing market. It's not something that stops. You know, not all of a sudden we've got everybody speaking English to 11 on the planet. And then it stops because you've got your next 10 year old, 11 year old, 12 year old coming through. So it is constant. It's constantly growing. What it will ever stop, I don't know. I do remember 2008 or before, in fact, it must have been before we started, being told that by 2010 the language would be switching. English would be no longer the language that everyone was learning and everybody would be learning Chinese.

But that's not proven to be the case at all. English is, yeah, it's a little bit of an unstoppable force. Not necessarily for the good of English speakers who do not learn another language. You know, it is pretty much just the unstoppable. You know, that's the way it has come to Lingua Franca. There's nothing that looks like it's going to take over or be an opposition to it. So there's a lot of opportunity out there for the future.

Euan (40:56)
Andy, I want to go back to you here. As the sort of fellow kind of relative newbie to the industry like myself, certainly from my perspective, I was taken aback by how massive the industry was. Not just in terms of course providers, but in terms of the sheer numbers of people who become teachers.

The sheer numbers of people who become teacher trainers. Just the sheer size of it. I was taken aback. I knew it was big, but I don't think I realised how big it was. Did you go through a similar kind of feeling of, oh my goodness? Like, did you? When you sort of realised the scope of things and was a big driver of your being involved with it, just the scope of how much could grow. Was that something that was really exciting for you being part of it?

Andy (41:39)
Yeah, yeah, 100%. And, you know, similarly, I suppose I knew it was large, although I hadn't really given it a huge amount of thought. And I think, you know, I'm particularly sort of driven and an ambitious person by nature.

So when I was looking at the industry, I just, you know, one of the things that came out was just how sustainable it seemed. And that really ticked a big box, you know, because it is large. It is growing. It's global. It's online. It's got room for improvement. You know, it's taken the digital transformation and just run with it. You know, so many industries didn't, you know, and they couldn't survive. And I think this is one that has kind of been given that new lease of life. So I loved all of those things. And, yeah, I'm continually impressed by the life it generates and the excitement as well, because there's so much more than just, you know, numbers and stats and businesses. It really is quite inspiring when you see so many people coming back to us.

And they give us their feedback, not just through reviews, but through our social media. They're always kind of telling, the students are always telling us, you know, what they're up to and, you know, how they come on leaps and bounds. And from their initial, perhaps, fears and sort of low expectations, they are now dot, dot, dot, you know, teaching in Thailand and loving it and having the best time of their lives. And I think being part of that journey is also just one of those elements that is continually, I suppose, not shocking, but just a really, really pleasant, pleasant part of being in the industry. And the fact that it is so large. And the fact that it's so big. And the fact that it does have that sustainability means that you're always getting that. And it's constant.

Euan (43:30)
I love that. That's a great answer. I almost feel guilty about how silly the next two questions might sound. So, because despite how I look, I'm not much of a sci-fi guy. And that's relevant because the, I'm going to take you into the future with my next question. It is serious. There's a kernel of seriousness, I promise. Because at the time of recording, The TEFL Org was just recently turned 16 years old. You mentioned there 2008 when a company started. And if biorythmic is correct, that does make us 16. Now, it's impossible to say, but what do you think a Teflon course provider looks like at 32? What do you think the TEFL Org is going to look like 16 years into the future?

And again, you can go a little off the wall with your suggestions or you can be as serious as you like. Jennifer, what do you see The TEFL Org looking like in, hang on, let me do the maths quickly here. 2040? Sorry. Yeah.

Jennifer (44:27)
Yeah, I think I'm probably going back to when I was half an hour ago when we were speaking. There will be possibility of online learning being even more interactive than it is now. Maybe you could, so our virtual classes currently, we can have people from all over the world in the one classroom on a, well, virtual classroom on a Saturday. We sit with someone from Orkney and someone from Australia and someone from London. We sit with someone from Peru, all in the one classroom.

But maybe in the future, they can be virtually round in the virtual horseshoe, which is how we used to teach. I could see that. You're just all sat there and you're a little bit Star Trek-y, maybe. Not quite, but I believe to just go, I don't know how to say travel, but not quite like that, but just the hologram sitting around like one of these spaceships for you all. And then they all disappear at the end of the lesson after you watch it. I don't know what I've been watching. But that could work.

Joe (45:24)
So we could have like the lessons on the sort of ISS and stuff or the moon or somewhere. Yeah, just choose whatever you want.

Euan (45:32)
You can indulge the silliness of the questions if you like. It really is up to you how you go with this.

Andy (45:34)
I just don't know. I think, you know, there's the really fun stuff that Jenna was talking about, about VR and how that could, and AI and how that can impact. And yeah, I'm looking at, I'm thinking about the ABBA thing. That sounds quite exciting. TEFL the musical, yeah. So, well, do you know what? It was really, what's really funny about that is that, you know, we're always thinking about how do we, how do we actually tell more people about this in a way that, you know, isn't just sort of dull and exciting. So perhaps TEFL the musical is a good way of building. I was panicking there. You want to get the lead role? Fair enough. I wonder.

I mean, what I hope for our future is that, you know, we do. We just keep getting, you know, younger and fresher and better at what we do. I think this is a Benjamin Button kind of philosophy, you know, we just want to keep on bringing more freshness and light to the industry. Because if you think about, you know, when we started, you know, one of the reasons that Joe and Jennifer, you know, founded the business was to bring kind of more regulation to the industry was to, you know, help for navigate. What was. You know? An unregulated landscape. And so I am, I think. You know, I think from that perspective, it's gone from you know, really bad through really really good. And I think we continue in that direction.

So that wasn't as fun as it should have been. (No, no, it's all right) I got serious again. Didn't I? I know it.

Euan (47:05)
No, just imagine the orchestra swelling in the background to a crescendo. (put a nice orchestral bed in the background, that'd be good). Well, license-free! Guys, it's been fantastic speaking to the three of you; really, really illuminating stuff about the future of TEFL and I'm sorry I brought the tone down with ridiculous questions at the end. It really has been great talking to the three of you.

I was going to ask where people can find you, but I suppose on the TEFL org is there anything else you want to say to people before we finish up here?

Andy (47:43)
Other than have a look at the site if you haven't already, tefl. org

Joe (47:49)
Yeah, take the jump even if you feel, if it's not for you or you've got no confidence to be a teacher; at least go on the course and find out.

Jennifer (47:58)
Yeah, basically if I can do it, anyone can do it.

Joe (47:59)
Yeah, I'm the same.