Changing your life and making it work

Euan (01:01)
Welcome back to I Taught English Abroad. And I'm Rachael. I'm really, really happy today. I get to bring my first ever guest of the podcast back for another, well, it's his second rodeo now. But I also bring back a guest who featured in the last most recent season of I Taught English Abroad, who is a real hit with our fans as well.Two fantastic personalities that have so much in common, but also really different stories, really fascinating stories. To get them together on one podcast is taking a few emails, but far fewer than you think. Daniel Gillard, Rachael McGagan. So great to have you back in the podcast. How are you both doing? Back. Thank you for having us back. Yeah, great. Now, this is the first kind of multi-guest podcast that I've done. You know, if you do find yourself talking over each other, that's fine. That's just, as long as it doesn't become, you know, combative, then I think we're going to be okay. We'll dig in terms for the first one. For those who don't, for whatever reason, might have not heard your respective episodes of I Taught English Abroad, can you kind of give us a little overview of where you're up to just now, where you are in the world, and how you've come to be on this podcast? We'll go to Daniel first, because he's brought to us less recently.

Daniel (02:33)
Yeah, great to be back again. Thank you. I'm in Cambodia, still here, eight years after getting my TET ball. And what am I up to these days? Since we last spoke, I've moved from the University of Puthisastra, where I taught for over four years and ended up as the head of the department there. And these days I'm working for a lovely school called the Australian Centre for Education, right in the middle of Phnom Penh. I've been here for about 18 months now, and I do a lot of work with students who are preparing for IELTS, as well as general English teaching. And at the moment, I've just started teaching diploma courses as well in advanced academic communication skills.

And it's a lot of fun. It's nice to be back in the classroom full-time, which here is 22 and a half hours a week, which I think to a lot of Brits back home, it's not a lot of fun. It's not full-time. So I'm very time-rich. They pay me very well for what we do. They pay all of us very well. They're a really nice school. They're laid-back. They trust you to get on with the job. But there's always somebody there for questions. Yeah, couldn't be happier. And on the side, I'm currently organizing Cambodia's largest independent live music festival, called Nisat Market. And we're having a huge launch party on New Year's Eve with eight live bands, five DJs, 24 hours of partying and celebrations. With local and international bands.

So I'm kind of getting back to my old job as a nightclub manager in a way and dealing with the lunatics that are musicians in this country, foreigners and locals alike. That's proven to be a lot of fun; I love those guys. So yeah, we're trying something out in a jungle village in Western Cambodia right now, which hasn't really been tried before. The combination of the two, teaching and live music arranging, proven to be keeping me young and stressed.

Euan (04:20)
Daniel, anyone who listened to your episode of the podcast will not be even remotely surprised. But I think people who are encountering you for the first time will just be like, what? He's doing what? Rachael, tell us about what you're up to. Because since we last spoke, there's a lot that's happened.

Rachael (04:38)
I'm in India, in Varkala in India, I'm doing a 300 hour yoga teacher training course. We get up at 3a. m. and we have yoga right up until 9:30 p. m. With different classes, anatomy, meditation, philosophy, all of that. The last time we spoke, I was in Cambodia teaching. I left the end of July. I ended up, we're finished up. So I left. I was traveling around Thailand for a while and India doing my teacher training. So back in Cambodia, I was teaching for anyone that doesn't know or didn't listen to the last episode. I was teaching preschool English in Siem Reap in Cambodia. I was there for a term and I absolutely loved it. What Neil says, the English teachers get paid quite well in Cambodia. They, you know, the cost is cheap. So I'm very grateful that I was able to do that. I was able to save up some money and now I'm just traveling around and I'm jobless, and it feels great.

Euan (05:23)
Amazing. So again, you know, they're both very different stages of your respective careers. And so, you know, I don't expect your answers to be of the same length. Again, anyone who's listened to your previous episodes will know some of the story already. You know, this episode is going to be focused very much on kind of changing career. And so with that in mind, I ask, you know, we'll go to Rachael first. But what did you do kind of before you became a teacher? Before you even had the idea of kind of moving and traveling in your head? What was your life like beforehand?

Rachael (05:57)
Like a lot of people, I was going from job to job in my twenties. But then that was in Ireland when I lived in Ireland. And I moved to England then at the end of my twenties. And I was working for an engineering company and I was doing kind of marketing and graphic design for them. So it was a typical nine to five job. It was in Ireland, so just outside Manchester. I was getting a train to work every morning. I didn't absolutely hate the job. I just hated the idea of like selling my soul to the corporate world. So then in April, I listened to the 'I Taught English Abroad' podcast, Daniel's episode. And Dan lived in Manchester, near to where I was living. And he was speaking about Cambodia and just something about that. And something about the way Daniel explained it. It just kind of like sparked something inside me. And I was like, 'Oh my God, I want to do this.' And so, up until then, I was working kind of corporate jobs, bar jobs. And a friend of mine also, I told the story of the podcast, but a friend of mine was living in Spain. And she was working as an English language teacher. And I went to visit her and I had the privilege of going in and meeting some of her students. She was teaching like kind of young teenagers.

And I walked through and was like, 'Wow, this is like, I could do this.' Like, it gave me and how happy it made her. It just, I was like, 'this is what I want to do.' And I kind of forgot about it then until I listened to Daniel's episode. And I reached out to Daniel. I couldn't find him anywhere on like Facebook or Instagram. I reached out to him on LinkedIn, I think. I said, 'Daniel, I love the podcast. Like, it was really good. I just want to say like, you're really inspiring.' And, you know, I really appreciate that you went on that episode and like told your story. And Daniel basically was like, 'look, if you want to do it, you should do it.' You know, come out to Cambodia. There's plenty of jobs here. I can meet like some interviewers and stuff. And I'll take off from then. I did it online. I went to Italy first. I thought I might as well see a bit of Europe before I went out to Asia. So, I taught in Italy for a month in a summer school. And then, I moved to Malta. And I was teaching English there at summer schools and also at an English language school. It's an English-speaking country; they speak multiple languages. They teach and English there. Obviously, the weather's a lot better than England. And it's a bit cheaper there. So it's quite easy to get English teaching jobs over there as well.

So I was quite lucky to land two jobs while I was there straight away. Spentt time in India. Did mine for, I'm doing it now, but I did it back home as well. But I'm spending now. So it was actually this time last year I was in India about to go to Cambodia to teach English. Then I went to Vietnam, traveled to Vietnam. And then I went to Cambodia. And up with Daniel. My plan was to go meet Daniel, see Phnom Penh, and then maybe travel to Thailand for a while and then start work after Christmas. That was my plan. So I got to Phnom Penh. I was very happy to see Daniel. Everything was great. It was so nice to see him. We had such a lovely conversation.

But I was like, I don't know if Phnom Penh is for me. And I was freaking out a little bit. And I was like, Daniel, I'm but I don't know if I want to live here. Like, I don't feel like this is for me. Obviously, it's a city. And I had moved out of Manchester. I was like, what have I done? I'd throw my whole life away. Daniel was like, right, calm down. Go to Siem Reap. See Siem Reap. You're going to love Siem Reap. And think about that. So I got to Siem Reap. And I was like, okay, this is what I want. So I ended up there then for the remainder of the time up until July of this year. And I was said teaching English to preschool students. And I absolutely loved it.

Euan (09:42)
So, fantastic. And Daniel, a couple of questions kind of arise from that. What was it like for you knowing that, like, you had had such a direct impact on your life? Was it like knowing that someone reaches out to you, to go like, oh, by the way, like, I've done this and it's because I was listening to you talk? Is that quite a surreal thing?

Daniel (10:14)
It is on one level. And I keep thinking, I want to say thank you to Rachael for being so nice. I'm really sorry for messing up your life. Rachael's forgiven me now and found her way in India. But no, I remember when Rachael came here and I say, 'You know, Phnom Penh is; it's an acquired taste. It's not everybody's cup of tea. It's not the most pretty city in the world.' It's a culture here for foreigners living here that very social, but very alcohol-centric as well. If you like going out. And I always assume everybody's like, 'hey, you know, a Friday, Saturday night party animal.' And it's dragging myself out of the weekend. And I'm waking up on Sundays feeling like definitely warmed up. So it's beginning to wear on me a bit as well. But no, I remember Rachael going up to Siem Reap and I was really happy because that is Siem Reap's the best of all worlds kind of city, in a Cambodian context. It's a city that's really a town. It's got a social scene. There are a lot of really great foreigners who live up there who can help you settle in.

The local people are so very used to working with foreigners as well and have a lot of luck for us. Very positive environment. But yeah, when you, I've had it occasionally over the nine years, somebody's got in touch and said, 'Can you tell me about teaching?' And I think back to the teachers who sat down with me in Phnom Penh when I was here for my first dedicated Cambodian class. And they just laid it all out for me as much detail as it could. And I promised myself that I'd always try and be as helpful as they were because they changed my life. I met a handful of teachers on a night out at a bar table. I was talking to the owner of a little bar, a gentleman from Leeds.

And I was asking clumsy questions, I guess. And he just said, right, stand up, follow me over. And he popped me down on a table in front of a group of teachers. And they just said to them, yeah, he seems all right to me. Tell him everything he needs to know to be a teacher. And yeah, do you want another beer, mate? I was like, yeah, OK, cool. And back to questions followed. The teachers, they knew everything. And it is very simple to move to Cambodia as well, which really helped. Immigration is not a huge hurdle coming in. But I know people have had experiences. I think I've been lucky when it comes to things like visa renewals. And I've had good schools who've dealt with that kind of thing properly.

So on the whole, it was relatively easy. But I do always worry. I'm sometimes too enthusiastic. And maybe I don't tell people about all the potential potholes and pitfalls of abandoning your life in the UK and coming all the way over here. But for me, I don't know, 35-degree days, no such thing as winter. I do occasionally have snow, but I'm half Austrian with family in the Alps. So I've got a solution for that. Yeah, I don't miss the cold, though. I just miss the white snow. Every now and again, that's about it on that front. But yeah, it's surreal to know that you have an influence like that. But then you've got to think, well, we live in a world of 8 billion people and we all have to influence each other.

The only way things are ever going to get better on an individual or macro level, I guess, is if we all try and help one another without getting too political. But yeah, I'm really glad I could help. And I'm always kind of surprised to even hear that I've helped.

Euan (12:55)
I want your brutally frank opinions on this. And I'm not going to be upset because I've never taught English as a foreign language. In fact, if anyone's more, you know, if anyone has a right to be annoyed by these particular opinions, it's actually yourselves. So I want your honest take on what you thought, what you knew about teaching English as a foreign language before you became teachers yourselves or before you realized it was a possibility for you.

Did you have any preconceived notions about the kind of people who taught English abroad? And before you realized it was like, this is actually the kind of thing I can do, did you have like stereotypes in your head?

Daniel (13:25)
Yeah, I'd love to jump at this one. Before I discovered teaching was, the primary route for a lot of people to come to Cambodia, I had very little idea about what being an English teacher overseas was about. But I did have a mental picture in my head of a 55-year-old white man with no hair. It was kind of like a little bit washed out, a little bit fed up, might have been a teacher in the UK, might have been middle management or something.

And that was out here kind of eking out a living, living in a bedsit or something, you know. And then I remember starting the training with TEFL. org and there were all these wonderful videos. And there was a particular teacher that they used in these training videos who was absolutely fabulous. And he was a middle-aged white man, but he was so enthusiastic, but he was also such a good listener. And I very quickly realized the big part of the job, which I still struggle with because you can never shut me up, is actually shutting up and listening to the students and how they're forming their English and learning. And yeah, that kind of started to change my perceptions of what it is to be an English teacher.

And then coming out here, seeing Thailand, Vietnam, Cambodia, and meeting so many different English teachers, not only from the UK and the main kind of language countries for English, you know, the USA, Canada, Australia, but also a tremendous contingent of Filipino teachers and South African teachers who really make you think differently about the language, its history, its impact, the small-P political side of that. Where we all come from as English teachers is actually incredibly diverse. And not least of all out here, the Khmer teachers of English who all go to university to get degrees in TEFL and masters in TEFL, and they put their whole lives into it. And I feel very blessed that all I had to do was a 140-hour Premier TEFL course with TEFL. org.

And that was pretty quick as a native speaker. And compared to what the Filipino teachers and the Khmer teachers, the hoops they have to jump through to do the same job that we do and the professionalism they show, and it is a much bigger academic achievement to them than it is for me. I have it easy. I've just got a PGCE at the start of this year, and that was still easier, I think, than doing a degree in English as a foreign language. We have the Institute for Foreign Languages here. Their courses are four and five years long. And a lot of these teachers are emerging as graduates, just like us, with student debt, loans to repay, all of that. And I think I'm very blessed.

And that's something I've learned as a native English language speaker out here. I have it a lot easier than many of my colleagues.

Euan (15:10)
That's really insightful. Rachael, what were your impressions of the TEFL industry and the kind of people who move abroad to teach English?

Rachael (15:20)
In terms of being worried about perceived, I think, struggle that anyone goes through that decides to just quit their career and do something completely different, especially if it's moving abroad. So I guess just coming up face-to-face with family, I mean, like, are you well in the head? Are you okay? Like, you're mad? And friends saying, 'Oh, what about your pension?' And what about this? And what about that? And so in terms of that, definitely those were the struggles that came up.

And in terms of pretty good ideas, it was only from what I had heard from other people who had taught English abroad or knew of people teaching English abroad. And it was kind of sometimes, like, focused on the negative. It was a lot of, 'Oh, you're going to Cambodia to teach English. You know, you even needed to teach there.' You know, there's any wash-ups couldn't end up there. And you're going to meet so many weirdos. And this was kind of the things I was getting, especially when I was in Malta, because there's, like, teachers from all over the world, teaching in Malta, and they had heard about people, you know, teaching in Cambodia in particular. But then Cambodia just, like, I met some of the most amazing people.

Like, my, at Girley, we worked in the school. We ended up getting an apartment together, a girl from America, Emmy, like, we were best friends. Another girl I actually made friends with, I just found out this week that she actually passed away this week, or last week. Oh, that's her, sorry. So, yeah, not to put a damper on it, but, yeah, she was from South Africa. And she was just so helpful. And you make these friends that are friends outside of work as well. You know, they become friends from outside of work. The best people. And, of course, there was maybe one or two weirdos along the way. But not any more than there was in Malta or Italy. So, yeah, definitely, when I got there, I started meeting teachers.

And, you know, as Daniel said, there's an influx of English language teachers, and they all kind of hang out together, especially in St. Maureen and stuff. And just, like, I was meeting you know at random things, a comedy night. My friend Princella she ran a comedy night. And there was just all her jokes were like hey what about these teachers? And everyone's like hey pick us. This is all English teachers. Yeah as Daniel said like working with Khmer teachers. And I don't know if Daniel probably gets the same sense of like this English teacher guilt where the locals are getting paid a lot less than what we're getting paid. And as he said they're jumping through hoops. They're having to do all these interviews and degrees.

And you have to have a certain accent when they're speaking and everything. Whereas for us, it's like, oh, you have a TEFL and you speak English, great. Okay, just one ahead. And, yeah, it's changed, thankfully. Always, you know, make it a point to speak well about English teachers to other people now who are pursuing the career. Because, thankfully, it didn't put me off, but it could have easily put me off.
Daniel (19:01)
Can I just jump in? (Absolutely, Daniel yeah) I just wanted to say how sorry I was to hear about Rachael's friend. If it's the same person, it made headlines across the country here. I never met her, but we have mutual friends. And, yeah, I was really sorry to hear about that. It was quite a shock. Because, you know, it's very unusual. But, anyway, I won't go on about it, but just to say very sorry to hear about that.

Euan (19:54)
We're just going to take a short break and we'll come back to talk more about changing careers in the TEFL industry. Are you enjoying the podcast and looking to start your teaching adventure? Maybe you've always wanted to travel and teach or work from home with people from all over the world, and you're just not sure where to start. Well, the best beginning is a TEFL course with the most highly accredited provider on the planet. Just enter the code PODCAST at the checkout to get 50% off any of our internationally recognised TEFL courses. That includes our best-selling 120-hour Premiere online course. We'll even throw in a free lesson plans pack.

Euan (20:25)
And we're back with Rachael McGettigan and Daniel Gillard. Now, I want to kind of open up kind of your story to sort of the more general context, for the TEFL-curious populace, if you wish. I want to talk a bit about transferable skills. I know, don't worry, you're not in a job interview here, the two of you, but I was wondering, you know, kind of applying your story to the people that are listening to this. You both made that transition into teaching English having come from different kinds of careers. What transferable skills would you say you brought from previous roles that made you realise that, you know, you actually did have these skills in English teaching and you had stuff that you could bring?

Whether it was really kind of direct stuff or if it was something, I don't know, they call them soft skills from other areas where you thought, oh, actually, that's really handy. Rachael, we'll go to you for this one first. What sort of expected and unexpected things did you bring from previous life experience and from jobs that, you know, transitioned well into teaching?

Rachael (21:00)
Well, probably in terms of like soft skills and the more kind of technical corporate stuff, just the usual document skills, emailing, like how to speak to people and, you know, in interviews, how to speak to other teachers, stuff like that. Probably coming from the corporate world helped in that. It also probably helped with my English because, yeah, I'm Irish, so sometimes our English isn't the best even though it's our first language. That probably helped with that. And then in terms of unexpected ones, it's probably I was a dancer and a dance teacher for years, and that has definitely really helped with my teaching, especially with the preschool, but also with young children that I taught in Malta. Just being able to handle a group, being able to talk to children and know how to talk to them and how to communicate with them. I also spent a lot of time working in nightclubs, so sometimes handling young preschool children is the same thing as handling a group of Mancunians at 2 a. m. in Manchester. I'm sure, Daniel, you can agree to that, yeah. Yeah, ex-nightclub man here, and yeah, the average, average customer in my club was about 75% as emotionally mature as a teenager.

So, yeah, definitely a transferable skill set there.

Euan (22:43)
And so, Daniel, you know, drawing from your own experience, again, to sort of draw from your podcast episode, you worked in politics, you worked in care, you drew from that nightclub experience there as well. What were the kind of, again, like I asked Rachael, what were the kind of expected and unexpected transferable skills that you brought to the classroom, the ones that, you know, you kind of expected would help and the ones that made you go, oh, I didn't realize that that would ever help me in this scenario? Y

Daniel (23:28)
Yeah, I mean, one skill that I'd had, I guess it had developed through 25 years of being active in local politics and then becoming a local councillor was English. Like most native speakers, I had not the first clue about the rules of grammar, but I knew them. It's the first language, it's in your brain, you know. So yeah, instinctively knowing them was some help. Also being able to write quite well. I'd often do speeches and newsletter stuff, but also public speaking. I've never been that afraid of standing up in a large room or I think the largest audience I ever addressed in England was 1,500 Piccadilly Gardens, which if you can do that, you can generally do a classroom of 30 kids because 30 kids are kind of, especially Cambodian kids, wanting to like you, they're wanting to learn from you. They're patient and kind. 1,500 random Mancunians on a Saturday morning hearing you through a megaphone, possibly saying things they don't agree with.

That's a bit riskier. So yeah, formal speaking certainly helped. Being an ex-club manager at Antwerp Mansion nightclub, that certainly was a lot of people handling skills and some people slightly misbehaved at nightclubs. You might be shocked to hear. And knowing how to deal with that in an appropriate way and just knowing how to deal with that escalating stuff. You know, if you do occasionally have a kid who's not really behaving and not into it, it's knowing what level to go in at. That's usually the lowest level. You can go in and say, hey, what's up? Are you okay? Why aren't you listening to me? Why are you throwing things at me? Oh, whatever. That's never happened, by the way, in eight years. Nobody's ever thrown anything at me. Yeah, Cambodian kids, 99% of them are very gentle. So that helps. Certainly, working in children's services, child protection, knowing that children are vulnerable when they're in a classroom and when they're learning a language, they're emotionally vulnerable because they really fear getting things wrong, just like adults do. And I work mainly with teenagers and young adults these days. And I always bear in mind that, you know, and this came to me from working closely with very vulnerable children, that listening is important, having a kind response. At the end of the day, it's an English class. It's not brain surgery. Life and death isn't on the table. So just reminding them that if they get something wrong, A, I'm pleased with them for getting something wrong, and B, you know, the world is not coming to an end if you screw up a test or if you fail a course even.

It's just a course. It's not the end of your world. It's not the end of your life. I'm trying to constantly reassure my kids who are very driven and driven by their parents to do well because English is a route to a good career. English is a route to a decent income and a stable life for a lot of kids. And the difference here between rich and poor is stark. There are Bentleys, there are Porsche 911s driving the streets of Cambodia, and they pull up with traffic lights, and they're directly next to homeless people picking up trash cans. You know, there's a real Gulf that makes you cry, it's eye-watering between the rich and the poor here. And parents are so dedicated to getting their kids into schools, and they are often in schools 12 hours a day, six days a week.

So when they come to my class, I like to make it a space where they can relax. And again, being a club manager, again, child protection work, being a calm and reassuring face of that three quarters of it. The other quarter is the learning the English. That bit comes easy once you've set the room, you know. And if you've made a good plan, you know what you're going to teach that day. And if you get through half of what you're going to go through, half of what you want to teach, the rest can go to the next lesson. As long as they're walking out at least as happy as when they walked in, then you've got them for another lesson, you know. Once that relationship goes downhill, you've really got to work to get it back, but don't let it.

Euan (27:08)
Once that relationship goes downhill, you've really got to work to get it back, but don't let it. So, you're both teachers at very different parts of your careers, but there's something you both very easily relate to, and that's kind of early nerves. From both a teaching perspective and as people who'd moved to the other side of the world, how did you deal with early nerves? I mean, you've made these massive life decisions, but you've made them in a really informed way. And, you know, you've done it with conviction, you've done it with a plan, you know. But even then, I think even with the best will and all the research in the world, you probably still feel a bit like, when you make such a big decision.

So how did you deal with those kind of early nerves if you had them? And was it actually a better experience for having overcome those kind of early fears? I'll go to Daniel first on that one.

Daniel (27:44)
Sure. Yeah. There were a lot of, early nerves about going into the classroom. And in the buildup, I mean, in the buildup to leaving the UK as well, I felt it was always going to be the right thing to do. I'd get in my head that I'd go for a year and then see what I was up to. And then I spoke to family, and I've been through a lot in the last few years. We'd lost our mum in the family. I'd been elected to Manchester City Council for four years, a lot of highs and lows, managing a club, et cetera.

And then all of a sudden I was like, right, I'm going to Cambodia, everybody. And amazingly, the reaction wasn't all, are you insane? There was a few people who were like, where, what, are you crazy? But my family were incredibly supportive. But that was because I think I was open with them. As much as I was enjoying life in Manchester, I felt the need for a new challenge. Cambodia cropped up in my life, very randomly. But getting out here, it was between landing to move here, then I moved to Otris Village near Seattle, and getting my first job at EIS school. Small school, insane at will. Took only from landing to my first day on the job was three weeks, which is a really nice period of time just to get yourself mentally ready. I was living in a bungalow 50 meters from the ocean in a village full of creative, artistic people. And I walked as the kind of Mr. Normal compared to some of the people in that village. But they were really, really reassuring. They're like, don't worry, many people have done this before you, not the first, you won't be the last.

Euan (29:07)
So, Rachael, when you first kind of moved over and started living and teaching abroad, what were the kind of, did you experience any kind of early nerves? Mentally, when did you sort of know that you were kind of ready to do it? Were there any sort of challenges you had early on in terms of readiness? Or were you just like, right, let's do this?

Rachael (29:41)
Well, I didn't actually stand in front of a classroom for the first time until I was in Malta. I was teaching, kind of teaching English in Italy, but it was at a summer school and I was just an events or like activities coordinator. So I had been in classrooms and kind of shadowed teachers. But my first time standing in front of a class was in Malta and it was a summer school. And it was these kids, there were like 24 of them, I think. And it was their first day at the summer school. And the first time I stood in front of them, they were getting level tested and their level testing was being done on paper. And also, I had to level test them by just asking the whole group different questions.

And so I went to the staff room that morning. I was so nervous. I had never done it before. I was told that this school would plan the lessons for me, but I hadn't been given a lesson or anything. So I walked in and the Maltese are very two points. They're very, they're like, basically just very to the point. So I walked in and the teacher handed me like a pile of paper and was like, oh, hello, you must be Rachael. Here you go. This is your classroom. And I was like, okay. And she was like, yep. And she was like, yeah. You just need to give them these tests. And make sure they don't cheat. And then you ask them these questions.

And then you have to say, if you think they're this level, this level, this level. And I was like, okay. I was like walking in being really giddy because I was so nervous. And I was like, I was just like really over the top. But I think getting thrown in the deep end so fast kind of took away the nerves. And I realized that when they were asking me the questions about myself, I was like, they don't actually know it's my first day. And I just need to kind of go in there with full delusion and fake it until I make it basically. And I got like strict teacher on my first day, which I didn't plan on being, but because I had to make sure they didn't cheat and they were trying to cheat, I was like, 'Guys, go try to be a teacher,' but also making sure they weren't doing what they were supposed to be doing.

So I think, yeah, that definitely took away the nerves straight away. And then what happened for my first two days, I was like level testing. I was a little bit nervous as to whether I was level testing them properly and especially because I had never taught English before. I wasn't really sure if I was capable of doing that. But one of the other teachers kind of explained to me, 'Look, if they're putting the wrong level in the wrong class, they'll soon know, the teacher will know, and then they'll be dropped down or moved up.' So that kind of took those nerves away. And then teaching the first lesson then was thankfully easy because as I said, the summer school provided the lessons for you.

So I just might have had to kind of create the slideshows and make them look pretty. And I'm a graphic designer, my little side hustle. So that was the fun part for me. Definitely I was so nervous when I walked into the building, but then they were just like, 'Yep, here you go.' And the nerves were just gone, I think. And the kids were just so great and so funny that it just took all the nerves away.

Euan (32:00)
And I think, you know, one of the things that when we talk to prospective teachers who just aren't sure whether or not it's for them, I think they may be worried that they're going to move and they're going to feel really alone, especially if they're, you know, not so much in terms of teaching online and stuff like that. That's a different kind of career change. You know, people want to have that kind of location. But especially in terms of teaching English abroad, people maybe feel as though, okay, but all my friends and family are here and I don't know if I want to kind of feel that kind of solitude. But from what you've both kind of indicated thus far, that's not been the vibe at all. So what was the kind of support like around you when you started teaching? It sounds as though there were people you could rely on even if they were very straightforward with you, Rachael. You could at least talk to them and ask for advice. Daniel, I remember you tell me about there was a Hollywood actor that was, that you worked with early on as well. And for both of you, if you could kind of tell me about the kind of the network of people that you had around you when you started teaching and when you realized like, okay, I'm not on my own here. And you know, there are people around me who can help because I think that's something people worry about.

Daniel (33:24)
Absolutely, yeah. The Hollywood actor is the great Jeff Siggins. He worked with me at the university here in Phnom Penh. I believe he's in Iraq now. He's 82 and he's still teaching in Baghdad. That was the last I've heard from Jeff. But yeah, he was one of the many characters. There's so many interesting characters in the English teaching world, but also Cambodia is a country blessed with many an eccentric foreigner.

Wherever you go in Cambodia, there seems to be somebody from overseas who's got an amazing life story or you meet such a range of people. I know tattoo artists here. I know engineers here. I know a guy who worked for Dynarod for 40 years and has moved out to support his family who are living here. You name it. It doesn't matter what career or background you've had. Those first days can be intimidating. They can be overwhelming a little bit. Loneliness is something I've never really had to contend with in Cambodia because there's such an alive community here. And people are very aware that if you're a new arrival, you know, you're going to be feeling nervous. You're going to be feeling a little intimidated.

And most people are very, very supportive because most people in life in general are very decent. The same rule applies overseas as it does in the UK, I think. At least 95% of people you meet in the UK, they might not be your best friends or anything, but if you're in trouble or you've got a problem, most people will cross the street to help you. Most people will go out of the way to help a stranger. I think most people are decent. And certainly in Cambodia, the same applies. So yeah, in terms of homesickness, I mean, honestly, there are times when we all miss home a little bit. But I've been out here now eight years and as a tourist, bang on another year, make it nine. This is home now for me.

But those first couple of years, I've bounced back and forth a little bit between England and Cambodia, but came to the realization this was home. Well, this should be home because there's so much to do here. And there's so much fun to be had. But don't get me wrong, I'm not going to sit here and claim I never felt homesick. You know, there are times you miss family. But we're quite lucky in Cambodia these days. The internet connections are at least as good as the UK's. They've got our pen anyway. I can always call my cousins, my sister. Etc. All my best friends back home. You know, one friend I mentioned to you in the break, I talked to him on Messenger three, four times a week.

We just chat, you know, whatever it might be. We talk about news like. So these days, there's less of a disconnect. But don't get me wrong. There are moments I'd love to be, you know, if I see a big night out among friends going on in Manchester, I think that would be nice to be there. But equally, I think my very best friends have flown out to see me here. My sister's been out to see me. And as time goes on, those closest friends are also here as well. You know, I've met a lot of people who mean a hell of a lot to me here now, local and foreigner. And when you live in a society like that, compared to the Western world, you know, some loneliness, some solitude can be great sometimes.

But the loneliness is minimal. If you're lucky enough to, you know, meet the right people, integrate a little bit. And I speak a little bit of the language, a tiny bit, just enough to get by. It's a really tricky language. Come on. Yeah. I want to learn a lot more than a year, but I say that every year. And that helps if we can pick up a bit of the local language. But if it is Cambodia, most everybody speaks a few words of English. It isn't an official language here, but the government releases everything in English. The street signs are in English and Khmer. So there's a lot of little bonuses to living in this particular country where English is looked upon very favorably. So, yeah.

Euan (37:14)
And Rachael, you touched on earlier, you managed to make some friends really quickly and really, really good friends. You had that sense of community wherever you'd been teaching. How quick was that to establish for you? Because you seem like, like Daniel, like a very outgoing person, someone who finds it quite easy to make friends. Is that a fair assessment? Did you feel a bit of shyness at the start when you'd moved abroad?

Rachael (37:30)
When I first moved to Italy, we were living in the mountains in north Italy and all the teachers stayed together in rooms. So we were kind of thrown together and we had no choice but to make friends. Thankfully, everyone was so lovely. Like there was a group of eight or nine of us and they had like dinners with us the first few days and some training and stuff. And everyone just instantly bonded. Then in Malta, same again. Like I was lucky to meet, you know, you'll find Irish everywhere. I was lucky enough to meet a girl from Ireland on my first day in the staff room just before I went to the class. And then another girl from England as well. And we just, you know, made friends and stayed friends. And I think when you meet other English language teachers, it's very common for them to have the same like frame of mind as you, you know, views as you, the same kind of path that they want in life or like lack thereof because everyone's kind of in the same boat. So I think it is quite easy to make friends in this career because everyone is kind of in the same boat.

Everyone's out here without their family. And, you know, when I was in Malta, I did. I remember getting kind of a bit lonely towards the end. And I think it was just, I was kind of, I went sightseeing and I kind of crammed everything in. Of course, as always, you live somewhere and you avoid all the touristy places. And you're like, oh, I'll get there somewhere, someday. And then the final week, I just went to every church, every mosque, every beach in Malta, my final week. And I remember, you know, talking to my Auntie Brie and saying, you know, I actually, this is the first time in my life I've felt lonely. But I think that was just not being able to share the experience I happened to be having that day with someone else.

But I could have easily asked one of the figures with me. I had chosen to go there myself. And I think that's the only time really in Malta that I experienced loneliness. It was kind of self-inflicted because I thought I would have enjoyed it more by myself. And then in Cambodia, like, as Daniel says, solitude is great. I spent a lot of time on my own in Cambodia. Like, it was lovely enough to have a beautiful apartment with a really nice swimming pool. And I was kind of a little bit more outside of the city. And I, you know, spent a lot of time by myself. Which I really enjoyed. But also, I had that community of English language teachers. I'm also quite lucky that I have a deep interest in yoga.

And, like, there's yoga communities everywhere. I was also teaching yoga in Cambodia. So, I was, you know, going out for dinner with my students. Like, I would teach a yoga class. And then I'd end up having dinner with, like, half the class afterwards. And that was happening maybe two or three times a week. So, yeah, in Cambodia, I was nearly trying to get away from people. But, like, there was too much going on. I was like, okay, I'm going to spend some time by myself. I'm lucky that was quite easy to do. So, yeah, I think the last time I've really felt lonely was those two weeks in Malta. And I think maybe I had been traveling about four months at that time.

And it was still kind of trying to get used to the thought of not being at home. And, you know, I have a little brother and sister. My sister is only 16 and my little brother is 10. So, you know, I missed his first communion. And I missed the birth of my first child. And I missed my auntie's baby. And, like, obviously, times like that, you do, you know, you feel like a part of you feels like you should be home. But everyone at home understands. And they're happy for you. And you're like, oh, it's just not the same. Like, they don't understand. And those are probably the times now that I do feel loneliness is when everyone's getting together. Or when, you know, there's group family picture getting sent in family group chat.

And then I'm sending a picture of myself on the beach in Thailand up there, you know. So, yeah, definitely. Yeah, as Daniel says, you know, everyone misses home. But I think the benefits of being away kind of outweigh that. As he said, you know, it's very easy to call home now. Like, I remember when my granddad was alive. He was a great storyteller. And I remember him always telling the story of how he had left to go to Scotland to work in Scotland. But there was no phones back then. There was no iPhone. There was no WhatsApp. So he left to go to Scotland. And his family didn't even know he had arrived safe until three weeks later when they received a message saying he had arrived.

And, like, you think now you're getting on the boat. You're like, I'm on the boat. You know, you're landing in Scotland. I'm in Scotland. Like, everything's so instant. I'm so lucky in that way, you know. And as I said, the internet connection is great in Cambodia. And there's FaceTime, WhatsApp, everything. Like, my family are probably, they probably hear more from me now than they did when I lived in Ireland.

Euan (42:00) Amazing. We're just going to take a quick break. And then I've got a final set of questions for Daniel and Rachael. Want to know more about the world of teaching English? Interested in more incredible stories from our former students working all over the world? Then check out our weekly TEFL Org blog.

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And we're back with Rachael McGuigan and Daniel Gillard. So again, you know, this podcast is very much, this episode is very much focused on people who want to change careers. People who have fears, who have worries, who have excitement, who have ambitions. But also, you know, this goes really interesting kind of melting pot of emotions. And there's no point denying that people have fears and worries about teaching English abroad. About changing career. And, you know, we touched on it a little bit before, but, you know, speaking directly to that. What were your kind of immediate fears about changing career? And how did you, how did you overcome that?

Rachael (43:24)
We'll go to Rachael first on this one. I think I touched a little bit earlier about how, you know, I had friends and family at home. Focusing a lot on the lack of stability, the lack of income, the lack of a pension, you know, the usual stuff. And when you hear that a lot. And, you know, I probably wasn't even hearing as much as I think I was. It was just like going round and round in my head. And I was probably hearing it for myself.

And that was definitely like a fear I had going into it. You know, now I'm sitting here with no job and I'm the happiest I've ever been. And, you know, I don't know what my next job's going to be. But I'm so lucky that I have this temple now. And I know that there are countries everywhere that you can teach English that are crying out for teachers. And I just, I just need to decide something. Someday, okay, I'm going to start working again and then apply for jobs. And I don't think there's many industries where you can say that. We're very privileged that we're, you know, English language speakers. That our first language is English. And we know we kind of have the upper hand in that.

So, you know, any fears that I had before of finding myself unemployed or, you know, not having enough money to get by. Or, you know, not having that stability. It's just that fear is completely gone. You know, you have so much support. You know, your family are always there to support you. To support as well. Everyone's so impressed by what I'm doing. And, you know, so happy about what I'm doing. That they're always encouraging me to stay out and, you know, keep doing this. And, you know, as I said, the biggest fears I probably had was that lack of stability. And I'm now in that lack of stability. Like I'm fully in it and experiencing it. And it's not as bad as I thought it was. It's actually great.

It's like a feeling of freedom. And that feeling knowing that it can go away, whenever I want it to go away. You know, I can just, I have that freedom. The possibilities are endless of where I can work. And now I have no fear. And people always ask me, like, are you not scared that you won't have a job? Are you not scared? I'm like, not at all. Yeah, I think that the fears that I had are definitely completely gone now. And that's probably the first thing that people do ask me when they're asking about, you know. Especially after the podcast came out. I had people messaging me that had listened to the podcast. Saying, you know, asking for advice.

And one of the first things they'll ask is, like, are you not scared that you'll, you know, get sick of it? Are you not scared that you won't have a job? And I know it happens. Sometimes it does happen that schools will, you know, can drop you as quick as they can hire you. You know, contracts sometimes don't last that long. Or then aren't always that stable. But that doesn't scare me at all. Because it is just so easy to get a job. And get a job that you like. And that you're comfortable with. Love it.

Euan (46:03)Great answer, Daniel, same to you.

Daniel (46:10)
Absolutely. I couldn't agree more with what Rachael said there. And it certainly speaks to my experience as well. Whereas I've been very happily settled in one country for a long time.

Whereas Rachael's been all over the place in a wonderful way. You know, Malta, Italy, Spain, Thailand, India. I'm a little bit envious. But it's absolutely wonderful. The fear that you have when you first come out. My fear was that I wouldn't be a very good English teacher, plain and simple. Because I had no experience in the job. And the only way to get around that. You know, am I going to be good or am I going to be crap? Is to try it. And there are days when you're going to be not very good. I still have days when I have bad lessons. We all have bad days at work. But when you first come out, that fear is amplified in your mind. It's magnified because you've stepped away from the stability that Rachael's spoken so well about.

But as time goes by and you find your feet, like in any new role. You become more confident. You become more experienced. Fewer and fewer things can surprise or blindside you. Even changing jobs. I've done that twice now here. There's always a little bit of instability with a job change. But the more you experience, the easier that becomes. And it sets you up where, yeah, you come to love the instability a little bit. I would hate to sign a five-year contract right now. At the moment, we do nine-month contracts. And they're auto-renewed at my school, pretty much. They send you out another one. And that's that. You just sign it online and it gets sent back to HR. That's lovely. We're getting over those first fears.

The only way to do it when push comes to shove is to book your plane ticket. Is to get over there. If you can find a job before you go, great. If you can't, don't worry about it. Certainly, if you come to Southeast Asia, there's still a great value in knocking on a school's door with a paper copy of your CV. They are always happy to see you out there. And I know many people who've done that and have been invited in. They've had an interview, a quick one. And then maybe a more formal one a day later. And then, can you start on Monday, is the next question. But the only way to face your fears, ultimately, is to face your fears and take that leap. And you know what, as well?

If it doesn't work out, it doesn't mean your life's over. It means you've tried something. And that's more than most people will do. They'll sit on that bus, that proverbial bus with the rain kind of tapping against the windows. And a lot of people will live in that space. And I feel very, very sad for some of those people because they're going to get to an age where they're going to feel like, I can't do this. Or, I wish I'd always done this. You know, I always wish I'd done this. I don't want anybody to ever wake up later in their lives with those words, 'I wish I'd tried this.' I wish I'd done that. Because that's the real heartbreak, you know. If it doesn't work out and you think, 'Well, no, I've tried it.' But the UK is the best place for me. Well done for trying. And I salute you because at least you've tried, you know. And if England or the UK, sorry, is the best place for you, good. Find your home. Find your drive. Find your vacation. But you've got to try a few things, I think, before you realise ultimately what your calling in life is or your vocation or where you're going to be happiest.

Euan (49:00)
You've also kind of given me a really good answer to what was going to be my next question. So, Rachael gets that one now. So, Rachael, what advice would you give to someone who's having this sort of heart versus head debate? Their heart says that they want to teach. They want to do what you've done. They want to move abroad. They want to experience all these things. But their head's saying, for whatever reason, just now isn't the time. It's just not right. What would you say to them?

Rachael (49:27)
I think I probably, I think I did give the same advice. You asked me a similar question the last time. And it's, honestly, just do it. Like, as my philosophy teacher would say, there's a reason for everything. And I've been studying yoga philosophy every day for the past two weeks. So, that's probably why I've got my philosophy head on. But there really is. And if you're listening to this podcast and you have any inkling in your head that you want to do this, then there's a reason that you're listening to this podcast.

And it was the same thing as when I, because I wasn't even considering being an English language teacher. I opened Spotify. And it just came up. I taught English abroad. And I was like, oh, okay, I'll just play that. I was on the train home. It just came out of nowhere. And something made me click that. And here I am now, like, traveling the world, doing the things that I love, like, travel around India. If there's any tiny thing in your mind that says, I think I want to do that. Just do it. And as Daniel said, it's so easy to just go home again. And, you know, people will welcome you with open arms once you've tried it. Any doubts or fears that you have are probably things that we've covered in this episode or in our previous episodes.

There's not, you know, not much more. And if there are, you can go on Reddit and ask questions. You can message me, yourself, message Daniel. Contact anyone that you know that if you have any fears or worries at all about it. That is putting you off because I will, I'll make my little brother do it. I'll make my little sister do it. And if it's not teaching English, it's just going abroad and doing stuff and getting out of Ireland or out of the UK just to experience the rest of the world. And, you know, Daniel said that you don't want to be saying when you're older, 'I wish I had done it' or having regret. And that's what made me start to think about wanting to move abroad in the first place.

And that's why I actually moved to Manchester out of Ireland was because, you know, older generations. We're always saying to me, like, you know, I think you always hear that when you're younger or, you know, get out and travel while you're young, you know, make sure and travel. And it kind of just kind of goes over your head sometimes. But I remember thinking like this lady and she was only in her 50s, I think, said it to me one day in the office. I was working in Ireland. Oh, if I was your age, I wouldn't be working here. You know, I'd be away traveling. And I think one day I was just meditating or something. And I just came to my head like all these people are saying the same thing.

Like if you know you should do it, you should travel. You should do it. You should get out. And now I see why, like, it's indescribable with words, the things that you learn from traveling and the experiences you have. Yeah, honestly, the advice is just do it. Go for it. Apply for the jobs or buy the TEFL course first, of course. Do the TEFL course. I had great fun doing my TEFL course. Like I had fun. I love learning. I was spat out every night. It was like my little self-care was doing my TEFL course. So, yeah, just buy the TEFL course. And, you know, I bought it on Black Friday sales. There's a tip that I have about it. But it was a Black Friday sale on the TEFL course.

But, yeah, just buy it, of course. Do it. And we'll get a taste for then also, you know, teaching and stuff. But, you know, Daniel touched on one of his fears was that he wasn't going to be a good enough teacher. And I think if you want to do it, then you're going to be a good enough teacher because there's something in you that's made you better. And you want to do it. And, you know, it'll just happen. And you'll take to it. And, you know, you have the support around you. The kids are great. Or even the adult that you're teaching. Everyone wants to learn. And people are there to learn. And that helps a lot as well. So, yeah, just do it.

Euan (53:07)
Okay. Brilliant. Absolutely amazing. That's it.

00:53:20
We've had a similar almost spiritual experience. There are times in your life when the universe is sending you a message. And it comes through a million little comments. No, not a million. But a few little comments from friends. A random Spotify link. For me, before I ever came to Southeast Asia, I was listening to Spotify, doing my rounds at the local council and knocking on doors. And I had the earphones in. And I heard two songs at random, both from Cambodian bands. And I thought, what the hell is this? This is amazing. I don't understand a word of what they're singing, but this is amazing. Looked them up and found out they were Cambodian bands. And I was getting lots of little signals. Again, you know, travel, do this, do that.

And I listened. And I got on a plane. I took 40 days away. I took my iPad with me from Singapore. Went to the city council. Did my casework from afar over a summer. And it changed my life. And it was because I listened to what the world was telling me, what the universe was telling me. It was in the loud moments and the quiet moments. And there are times in your life, if you're lucky enough, you get a unified message coming at you from all angles. But it's subtle. And you have to listen to it. And when you do, go to tefl. org. Find the best price deal for you there.

Euan (54:35)
I'm not paying these guests to do this. Can't be clear enough about that.

Daniel (54:50)
I walked in when I was left because I felt like I had a small toolkit. And he's definitely not paying us, I promise.

Euan (55:01)
Yeah. I mean, I don't know if you, we can, we can, I am happy to read the email transcript back and forth. You know, I feel transparency now. I have nothing to offer. No. Thank you so much, guys. Thank you. It's been amazing. And I just have one question, one more question to ask you that I feel is going to be a very, very short one sentence answer. Maybe even one word. I don't know who to go to first in this. I'll let you kind of both jump in if you want to. But if you could do it all over again, would you change anything?

Daniel (55:20)
Yes. I'd do it 10 years sooner.

Euan (55:24)
Okay. Rachael?

Rachael (55:28)
I don't think I would change anything. You know, I'm, I'm a believer in everything happens at the right, at the right time. And I don't think I would do anything. Anything differently. I was going to say, I wish I finished my degree. Maybe that is actually one thing. I did drop out of university and in my second year, the end of my second year. And the only time I've ever been asked for a degree was when I wanted to teach English in Thailand. So that's probably the only thing. But what I do my experience over as far as like teaching and what I've done so far, no way.

But only the small thing would be having that degree, you know, under my arm to teach in Thailand. Would be nice. Well, I was lucky enough. I was able to do it with no degree. I could teach in Italy with no degree. I could teach all over Europe with no degree. And I could teach in Cambodia with no degree.

Euan (56:10)
That is actually a really good answer. I, in my mind, I sort of visualized that as like, you both going, 'nothing about it', being an amazing soundbite. I could maybe like start the episode with that, but that's actually a lot better. So, you know, fair play, fair play, fair play. No, I know it's fine. Rachael, Daniel, it's been, it's been an absolute pleasure talking to you both again. Thank you so much for your time. Thank you.