Daniel Gillard

Daniel (00:00)
You have this one wonderful life. Go live, go experience, go explore, and if it doesn't work, that's okay. You know, try ten things. If two of them work and change your life, you've changed your life twice over.
And it's a better life when you do that.

Euan (00:13)
You're listening to 'I Taught English Abroad', a podcast by The TEFL Org. My name's Euan Davidson and in this podcast series, we're going to be talking to people who've taught English as a foreign language, find out where it's taken them and what they've learned from it. So, whether you're an aspiring TEFL teacher You're studying for a TEFL course, or you're interested in teaching English more generally, hopefully this is the podcast for you. We'll be covering a range of topics each
week, from travel and accommodation to the nitty gritty of teaching, all while taking a look at global teaching and the quirks of TEFL life.

Euan (00:43)
Now, today, I'm excited to say I'm joined by Daniel Gillard, who to let you peek behind the curtain a little bit. We send each guest the opportunity to we ask each guest to provide us a little bit about their life, their background. Daniel's is incredible. So if it sounds like the synopsis of a film or a novella, then bear with me, because it's all true. I hope you don't mind me saying Daniel it's fascinating. So this is the story: prior to becoming a teacher of English as a foreign language in 2016. Daniel Gillard - and I am pronouncing that correctly, am I?

Daniel (01:22)
Yeah, it's either Gillard or Gillard, I don't mind which.

Euan (01:31)
Daniel enjoyed a career in the UK in local politics, as well as spending several years working in child protection and social services in addition to managing Antwerp Mansion nightclub in Manchester. So a few plates spinning simultaneously there. Whilst these varied roles represent some very rewarding work, it was on holiday to Southeast Asia that he discovered Cambodia, the kingdom of wonder, somewhere he fell in love with at first sight. Akin to Moses after 40 days and nights in the region and a 30-day return trip six months later, he decided to take the plunge, sign up for a Premier TEFL training course with The TEFL Org and make the great leap to the other side of the world.

Euan (02:06)
At the age of 36, this was a radical move and one which didn't go unquestioned by friends and family. We'll get to that a wee bit later as well. And so to bring you to where is now six years later, the Leap of Faith has paid off very well after two years working at a small English language school, and you'll have to forgive me for the pronunciation. Sihanoukville?

Daniel (02:26)
Close. Sihanoukville.    Named after the last king, King Sihanouk.

Euan (02:32)
Oh, there you go. Daniel made the move to Cambodia's capital Phnom Penn, initially to work as an English lecturer at the University of Puthisastra. After a very successful first year there he gained a promotion, becoming the head of the Faculty of English and Employability. In the following three years up to now, he's worked to expand the faculty, which has nearly doubled in size from 7 to 13 full-time staff as well at the university, and has led the project to successfully ensure that it has become the first and only Cambodian university to feature in the Times Higher Education World League Tables and the Times Impact rankings for the UN Sustainable Development Goals. I mean, that is one heck of a CV.

Euan (03:12)
He's now also studying part-time online for a Master's degree in Education, Leadership and Management from the University of Derby. Daniel, how are you today?

Daniel (03:27)
I’m all right, yeah. It's been a busy day. I spent the morning what was it this morning? I was chairing the assessment board for the university, where we meet and discuss all things assessment-related for all the faculties, all nine of them, and we had an exam results review committee meeting where we were dealing with the results. I think it was a master's course in midwifery and that all went very smoothly. This afternoon, I had the pleasure of meeting a team from a neighbouring college, a French one, and they had some questions about the English programme, as they have their own English programme in development. So not a typical day, but not an untypical one either.

Daniel (04:06)
As a manager of twelve teachers, 13 with me, I do actually spend a lot of my time away from that. I have two very good coordinators and I'm very blessed, very lucky to be involved with the day-to-day management of the university, which was definitely not what I signed up for when I signed up with the TEFL Org. But that's the road it's taken me on, that little TEFL certificate that was really nice to do, and I thought, well, this will get me started. It certainly got me started and it landed me in Phnom Penh in the end, which is just phenomenal. That's been my day so far. Anyway.

Euan (04:51)
Well, it's all downhill from here. We try and get a picture of what our guests did before they taught English. We've covered it quite extensively in that intro. But if you don't mind me asking, could you describe your pre-TEFL life to us a bit more? Because it genuinely sounds incredible.

Daniel (05:05)
Yeah, I mean, like a lot of people, you leave university at 21, 22. I spent a few aimless years doing admin jobs. I drove trucks for two years, used to see quite a bit of Scotland, actually. And at about 27, 28, I got into careers and then child protection work in Tameside, which is southeast Manchester. And in Manchester I was on the child protection team. I did a few years of that and I'd always been a member of the UK Labour Party. And I won't get too political, but I joined when I was 15 and had always gone to meetings wherever I lived and knocked on doors. And they said, Why don't you run for the City Council in Manchester? We've got a seat. We have no hope of winning against the Liberal Democrats, but it'll be good practice for you. And I won by 244 votes, and that is nowhere near the strangest event of the last ten years. Felt like it at the time.

Daniel (05:58)
I really wasn't meant to be a councillor. And there I was in Manchester City Council, and I had four wonderful years there. I had done three years as a backbencher in Manchester and then I became the Chair of Neighbourhoods for the City. Chair of the Neighbourhood Scrutiny Committee. And that was a wonderful last year in Manchester. And it was around that time I decided, well, I'd heard a couple of friends say how much they enjoyed Thailand, Cambodia, Vietnam, Laos and beyond, and I thought, Well, I can take the time, a councillor can do his case work on his iPad in this day and age.

So I booked a cheap flight with a couple of friends to Bangkok and we took it from there. And I have seen wonders here that will delight your mind and chill your soul in equal measure. And I got back from that experience and I'm always happy to talk about that time. And I got back from that and really felt

Daniel (06:51)
a yearning to go back and explore Cambodia in particular, because the people here are so warm, so friendly and Angkor Wat really stuck in my heart. And I'd heard a rumour of a village and a couple of fellow travellers we bumped into said, well, if you're going to go back, go to this village. So I took a look and it's this little village. It's gone now. It was bought out all the land by China and flattened for a casino. But for the time I was there, it was a place where there were maybe 500 people, give or take 250 foreigners of various nationalities, 250 local people, families. They've been in the village

Daniel (07:36)
before the Khmer Rouge during the time of King Sihanouk in the 60s. All the way back, it was a fishing village and we kind of turned it into a hippie village. A hippie fishing village. It has a very beautiful beach. It's still there, the beach. And we had the village for Setback and Otras One, which was on the beach, Otras Two, another little resort, and it was all kind of like pop-up shacks and tattoo artists and painters and drinkers, philosophers, poets, fools, you name it.

Daniel (08:07)
And I pitched up there at this point. I got my TESOL, my TEFL certificate and I had no job. And three weeks later, I was stood in a classroom in the nearby city of Sihanoukville, about a ten minutes drive away, in front of 35 kids who were all like, you're not teacher. You don't even look like a teacher. No. Who are you? You are a joke.

Daniel (08:32)
They weren't that bad. They were actually really sweet, but they were full of jokes like, are you sure you're a teacher? You don't look like it. That is the kind of on-the-surface level of it all. And it was just a wonderful couple of years out there where I cut my teeth as a TEFL teacher and learned the trade.

And I must say, the training really helped, it cut down the fear factor. You never have all the answers as a new teacher, but what that course taught me was to be honest with your students, always be open.

Daniel (09:04)
Tell them when you don't know, but you'll find out. All these little techniques, behavioural management, addressing bad behaviour gently but firmly. Yeah. And knowing which way to go for the answer to grammar questions, which I think is a fear factor for a lot of new teachers, as well I'm a native speaker. I don't understand the grammar rules, but I understand them. I can't explain them, but I know what's right and I know what's wrong. Yeah, you've got to look it up. You've got to learn on the job anyway. I could talk all day about it.

Euan (09.40)
Well, that's kind of the aim! You don't have a background necessarily in English language until your TEFL certificate. What was it about teaching English that inspired you to make that career move? And was there a particular point where you thought, after teaching that first class, maybe where you just thought, actually, I can do this?

Daniel (10.01)
Yeah, I mean, teaching to a degree was a means to an end. I won't lie, a lot of people will swear blind they absolutely love the idea from when they were four years old. But I'd enjoyed working with children in child protection, very much, and I left that field for a good four years and got into politics, which I love doing on an elected basis. It's the biggest ego boost you'll ever get, being elected. But I really enjoyed working with kids and I missed it a little bit. More than a little bit, but equally, it was a means to an end.

It’s one of the most popular jobs in Cambodia and Southeast Asia. If you're going to come out here as a British person, why not teach English? It pays well enough. The average salary in Phnom Pehn doesn't sound like much from the UK. It's anywhere from a thousand dollars to $1,500 a month. But you can live pretty well on $700 out here and you can live like a king on $1,500. So it seemed reasonable. I was on about 1000 in Sihanoukville and that was more than enough. The cost of living was cheaper still, there. A good meal out back then was about $2.50, which is about two pounds, give or take, even here in Phnom Penh I've just had lunch with a friend, a Turkish fella, and he bought lunch for me. I had two courses and a smoothie, and it was $4. I had lovely fried prawns with sweet corn, some French fries, a guava shake, and that was about $4 something. And that's, far from the cheapest breakfast of pork and rice, is still $1. And it comes with a bowl of soup and a fried egg, which us Brits really love.

Daniel (11:41)
I've got a one-bedroom place and it's less than $150 a month. I don't know. Britain is having a cost of living crisis at the moment, and I honestly would say to anybody who's watching this is interested, if you want to live somewhere and live a life where you have disposable income, consider a career as a TEFL teacher, because there are plenty of countries out there that will welcome you with open arms. And if you work hard, you get to play hard. And if you're young or older - my oldest teacher, Dave, is 69. My youngest, Ratinar, is 24. It's a job for any age. If you can head abroad, try it. The worst thing that will ever happen is that it's not for you. And you go home again with some wonderful memories. And odds are you'll probably stay out of the UK for a long time and live your life and have new experiences and meet new people and learn another language and eat food that terrifies Brits. I occasionally am known to eat frog's legs and snails, the big giant ones, about this big, and lots of other strange food.

Daniel (12:45)
And I'm not a small guy and this country feeds me very well. I forgot the question.

Euan (12:51)
I forgot the question. I mean, you've answered it several times over. That was fine. So I was going to ask because I think maybe I don't want to speak out of turn here. But when people imagine TEFL specifically in Asia. a lot of prospective TEFL teachers are kind of drawn to countries like China, Japan, South Korea. Sort of Far East. But with your own kind of example in mind. And I suppose you kind of already answered this to an extent. But why should potential TEFL teachers look more to emergent nations like Cambodia and look at Southeast Asia as an ideal landing spot?

Daniel (13:33)
I think it's a very good question. In developed nations like South Korea, Japan and, to a degree, China, there are already a lot of systems in place in schools, there's already a lot of curriculum development that's been done. And you'll often find - and in more established international schools, even here in Phnom Penh, you'll find that you turn up, you're welcomed and you're supported and well-liked as a teacher, probably. But they'll give you a textbook or a platform and they'll say, there's the content, this is what you do. Here's a lesson plan, this is how you do it. And that's all very well and good, and it's enjoyable for a while. But what you get in a country like Cambodia or Vietnam or Laos, particularly, are new schools that are set up to teach English. And in those schools, you often will find sincere, committed, local management who are not experts in any way, shape or form at teaching English. And they're looking for British and others - Canadians, Americans, you name it, anybody who teach well.

Daniel (14:37)
And they're looking to you for leadership. And there is something quite wonderful about coming to a place and helping to build something from the ground up as a partner, as a stakeholder. And if you look closely enough, go and have a look at a country, you're interested. Don't just look online for jobs. If you do, though, use The TEFL Org jobs centre.

Euan (14:58)
Didn't even have to say it. Didn't even have to.

Daniel (15:04)
But also, get out here with your CV in your hand. Cambodia is wonderful for it. So it's Laos and Vietnam, you don't have to email everybody, you can knock on the door with a shirt on, no tie required these days, and just say, Hi, my name's you, and my name's Daniel. My name's Dave. My name's Linda, Lisa, or whatever you name it. Just get out here. And you'll find that also, the students, I think, in Asia per se, generally speaking, East Asia and Southeast Asia and South Asia have a love of their teachers that will humble you completely. When I was teaching in the classroom, I strictly manage at the moment and I do miss the classroom a little, but when I was teaching, if it was my birthday, the kids would figure it out. They would send spies out to find out when my birthday was and they would buy you a birthday cake and they'd turned the lights off and sing happy birthday. And you can teach that day. And if you have four classes to teach, you have four birthday cakes.

Daniel (15:58)
And here at the university, they even bought me a few bottles of beer once, which was nice. And there's so many opportunities in Southeast Asia, not just in schools and colleges, but here in higher education as well, where they're recognising the importance, as they have done for a long time, of English. And in Cambodia, it's a very unofficial but very strong second language. Every single street sign is dual-language. Most menus are dual-language. It makes life very easy out here. Yeah, it makes a real difference. So they're very keen. Also, I'm at a health sciences university and we provide four years of English to all the students, whether they're training to be doctors, nurses, midwives, dentists, pharmacists.

Daniel (16:42)
We have an ICT faculty, we have a genomics master's degree, we're starting soon. We have all sorts going on, but all of these courses and programmes at the University of Puthisastra require English. Of generally speaking, four years. So we get to specialise our English. But there's no authority here telling us how to do that. That's us as a team of teachers coordinating with these faculties, saying, what kind of English do you need? Okay, we're going to go and think about that. We'll come back with a course outline and it's in draft form, and then we'll take their feedback,we'll finalise it, we'll send it to our curriculum advisory committee and if they approve it, the academic board approve it.

Daniel (17:19)
That's our curriculum. There's not many places on earth as a TEFL holder, you can help build a higher education curriculum. It's a profound privilege because you're shaping the linguistic opportunities for generations of young people to come. And right now, here, this is what's going on. There's this professionalisation of English teaching taking place. We have a conference every year called Cam TESOL, where other English teachers, whether they're native or non-native speakers, several thousand of them, come to one of our major conference centres for a three day conference every year, where we present seminars to each other on our subjects of expertise. The kind of professional development that's going on out here, and it's the first time they've ever tried it is amazing. There's networks being built, friendships being built that are really changing people's lives.

Daniel (18:13)
Not only the students, but the teachers, so many of whom came out here just hoping for a nice teaching job, and then, like I said, suddenly find they're running a department or a faculty or a whole school, and it can happen really quickly. Equally, if you just want to teach, it can be a lot of fun as well. Yeah.

Euan (18:33)
What you're doing, and it's actually very handy - is you're answering questions that I'm about to ask. So that's very useful. We'll get onto the career development side of it because I was really interested in asking about that specifically. But firstly, you mentioned - I didn't read at the start because I wanted to go into a bit further - but in the introduction that you sent to me, you mentioned the reaction of your friends and family.

Euan (18:58)
Now, I've got to imagine you've established this kind of career both in child protection services and local politics. You're also involved in Manchester's really famous nightlife. What are your friends and family thinking when you're just like, “right, that's me off to Cambodia now!”?

Daniel (19:17)
Yeah, I do this 180-degree vault turn. But there was a mixture of shock, horror, amusement, battlement and, I think, conversations about a mental health referral, it might have taken place more than once. I think my very closest friends, my very nearest and dearest friends, they were on the inside of this. Some of them were gently encouraging me, but also not like, well, it might make him happy. But I remember one friend, not a close friend, somebody I went to school with, and this doesn't really speak well to my old school. He said, Dan, I'm a little bit nervous for you, pal. I said, “why is that?” He said, “well, you're moving awfully close to Somalia.”

Daniel (20:05)
And I had to find a way to explain without insulting them and say, actually, when I go to Cambodia, you'll be closer to Somalia than I am. And I said, “if you check the news lately, Somaliland is not that bad, actually”. It’s somewhere I was going to consider teaching at one point, but he's like, “no, Cambodia is in Africa”. I'm like, “no, it's not”. He's, like, “Trust me, it's in Africa”. I'm like, “pally, I've been to Cambodia”. He's like, “you should be looking out the window more of the plane. It's in bloody Africa.”

Daniel (20:45)
I'm originally from Bolton and I could see Peter Kay's face staring at me mentally and laughing. I'm just going, it's what you've got to deal with when you're from Bolton. And I love my hometown and I don't mean to insult it in any way, but it was quite typical in its tone. It's like, what are you doing that for? Like, where even is it? I'm like, well, it's next to Thailand and Vietnam. Where the bloody hell are they, then? Far away in the land of Dragons. That's all you need to know. I'll come back on holiday.

Daniel (21:17)
But no, I mean, from my family, they were incredibly supportive once they wrapped their heads around it and continue to be. I don't have a lot of family left in England. My sister Roz and her three grown-up kids have been super supportive and I think surprised and shocked. I think we were expecting me to run for Parliament at some point with the Labour Party. The Labour Party were equally surprised, but we did it nicely and I completed my electoral cycle, so I didn't cause a by-election, which is very expensive and it costs taxpayers a lot of money and I don't want to do that. So we dealt with it nicely. The leader of my local Manchester Council, Sir Richard Lees, was very supportive and he said, well, if that's what you want to do, that's what you want to do. And he didn't use the word crazy more than once, in a nice way, and he said, well, the doors open for you if it doesn't work out.

Daniel (22:09)
And so many people did say that, go and try it, and if it doesn't work out, at least you tried. And I can't emphasise that enough. When you've got friends and family who are saying things like that to you, they're the ones you want to surround yourself with, even if it's only on Facebook and Messenger from abroad. The kind of people are saying, don't do it because you'll fail, you need to kick them out of your inbox because you have this one wonderful life. Go live, go experience, go explore, and if it doesn't work, that's okay. Try ten things. If two of them work and change your life. You've changed your life twice over.

Daniel (22:46)
And it's a better life when you do that. And travel is not for everybody. I would say, if it's not your cup of tea, then don't do it. But if you're watching this video, I suspect you already think this is for you. So I'll say to you out there, try it. You have nothing to lose but the cost of a couple of flight tickets and some accommodation. You can easily earn that money back again, no matter what. So it's not life-changing amounts of money to do this. Another plug for The TEFL Org for quality versus pound coins. You're not going to find a better deal, trust me. I now know this industry inside and out. The TEFL Org deal combines great value for money with really good online tutors. Solid course material. And for those of you who are native speakers, the grammar sections will build your confidence before you ever have to step in front of the classroom. When you do those weekend away days, the away weekend, you'll meet other TEFL-ers, or whatever you want to call yourselves. Other soon-to-be teachers in a nice setting with really experienced teachers.

Daniel (23:53)
We had a couple of people who were British and have been teaching in Prague and Paris, I think, and they taught us so much in just two days. You never have all the answers when you get out there to your first class, but they gave us a lot. I certainly looked more confident than other new teachers who are arriving at that time, who were just like, what's going on? Didn't know which way it was. It was a lot of fun to support them, but I wish they'd spent the extra £100 on something that was quality or the extra £50. I'm sure it's not that much of a difference. TEFL Org: for money, excellent source material, really supportive experience. I probably wouldn't have done half as well without the 140-hour course.

Daniel (24:43)
It was a huge advantage.

Euan (24:50)
That actually leads very perfectly into a break. One of my fantastic colleagues at the TEFL Org is going to tell you about something that's happening on the website right now.

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Euan (26:08)
Okay. And we're back with Daniel Gillard. So just to go straight back into it, because I love the pacing of this so far it's been really good. It wouldn't be unfair to say you've had a pretty meteoric rise up the ranks. In terms of teaching in Cambodia, I was wondering how much your sort of non-TEFL experience and transferable skills factor into how well you've done there because you've gone from teaching English to being a faculty header at a Worldwide recognised University. How does that happen? Because it can't just be. I mean, as much as you were prepared for teaching English, there had to be other stuff that factored into that, too. So what would you attribute your career trajectory to?

Daniel (26:54)
Yes, arriving as a faculty head was a culmination. I think, like you said, a lot of transferable skills and experiences. You'd be amazed how much - I did a lot of admin jobs in my 20s, which back then was filing paperwork. It was a lot of typing, a lot of time on the computer, and a lot of senior management is a big factor in that. And it's not the most exotic or exciting work sometimes, that side of it, but the ability to organise and be structured in your thoughts and objective thinking. I picked up a lot of those skills in administration and local government and also as a local councillor, you're dealing with casework which isn't all to do with the Conservatives or the Liberals or Labour and the big battles. Most of local political service is potholes and dog poo, as Harvey Milk would famously say.

Daniel (27:46)
It's like, what do you do for a living? Potholes and dog poo. And it is very true. It's potholes and dog poo. I used to quote that from Harvey Milk all the time. But it teaches you how to be professional, meet people, create a good impression. And so much of leading in a university is about creating the right impression for parents, for students. We do a lot of work with the government here, with the Ministry of Education, Youth and Sports and with the Ministry of Health. And definitely, 25 years in a political party helped.

Daniel (28:25)
I don't mind whether you're Labour or Conservative or SNP or Plaid Cymru, Sinn Féin, whatever you are, whatever your views are, if you have any politics and it's okay not to, if you have any interest in politics, it is definitely a transferable skill as a teacher as well. Teaching is like performance art. You paint a picture in a classroom that is to do with language and that is to do with acquisition and how you expect and hope your students will learn. Like any role, you have to put a little bit of a mask on. It's not deception, but it's about taking your students on a journey with a character by the side who's supportive, friendly and engaging. And politics is similar. People come to you in desperation. They don't come to you because you're the first port of call. They come to you because they feel the system is failing them.

Daniel (29:15)
Students, when they're in a classroom, feel remarkably similar instinctually. They're quite scared sometimes out here, losing face is very important business. You don't ever want to lose face. It's a cultural norm here. So you have to be quite sensitive to people's emotions.That's another transferable skill from child protection work. I often would work with children who are traumatised, very scared, very alone in the world, often betrayed by the closest members of their own families. So if you can deal with that, dealing with an 18-year-old in your classroom for the first time, or a twelve-year-old… It is comparatively easy, and there are a lot of jobs like that before you come to teaching. You can gain through some very positively stressful prior experience. It can make the daunting nature of being in a classroom seem quite okay.

Daniel (30:12)
Teaching abroad shouldn't only be for 22-year-olds - who do a fabulous job and I know a few who have really done great work out here. But I had one wonderful lecturer. His name is Jeff Siggins. He retired last year at 79 years old.

Euan (30:29)
Wow.

Daniel (30:29)
He started life as an actor in Hollywood. He was a member of the cast of I Love Lucy. Yeah. Videos on YouTube. And yeah, he was big on Hollywood. He was big on Broadway for a good ten years in New York. He was a personal friend of Jack Nicholson and Andy Warhol. He would drink with the Rolling Stones. He was a really well-known character. Jeffrey Siggins. Check out his IMDb page, quick plug for Jeff. And he moved to China out of nowhere. He was succeeding as an actor in New York and Hollywood. And he said, no, I've only got one life. I'm heading the road. I've got these skills as an actor. Maybe I can use them to teach. He's a great example. He did many years in China, got to 65. They had a retire at 65 rule at the time. So they said, “well, sorry, you've got to leave. China says goodbye”. So he came down to Cambodia via a couple of other places, and the university took him on. And you'll never meet a teacher like Jeff.

Daniel (31:26)
He would put a blonde wig on and impersonate Janis Joplin. He dressed up as a ghost. People love ghost stories here in Cambodia. And he would wander the hallways claiming to be a ghost. Just a lovely, lovely person. The last I heard from Jeff, he was in Guatemala, somewhere near the border, trying to get into Costa Rica to meet up with a friend of his. But he's banned from Costa Rica for reasons I can't go into. Is that Costa Rica or Puerto Rico? I can't remember. It was one of them, but it was a long time ago. But he's going back there. He's just about to turn 80, and he hitch-hiked through Thailand for a couple of months after spending nine months in Kampot straight after retirement, which is on the south coast of Cambodia. And he's an incredible character.

Daniel (32:16)
And all those transferable skills made him a teacher who profoundly changed the lives of a lot of young people here. And they loved him so much, and they still do. I hope I can be half as good as Jeff Siggens.

Euan (32:28)
There isn't a chance in the world I was expecting that response to that question. I'll be honest.

Daniel (32:36)
He's just one of the great characters who's passed through my life. I am blessed to meet so many amazing people as a TEFL teacher. You meet so many characters. There's no model, there's no one-size TESOL teacher or TEFL teacher. And just to say out here in Southeast Asia, we say TEFL TESOL ESL. People get kind of lost in that in the beginning. They're like, oh, which one's better? Just if you're a first-time watcher and you've not had this told to you before, TEFL, TESOL, ESL. When you get out here, it's all good, it's a good qualification, it will get you a job.

Euan (33:14)
Absolutely. A lot of that answer was especially important because I think people do get this assumption that teaching English abroad is for a specific type of person. So, for example, it's only really for people who have studied English at school and wanted to teach, as opposed to… I don't think people realise that it's actually a benefit to have all these different kinds of careers behind you before you embark. It seems like such an important thing.

Daniel (33:51)
I've met doctors, NHS doctors, I've met nurses, I've met lawyers, I've met painters, decorators, truck drivers - I did that about a couple of years in my 20s. I've met people who've never had a job before, who are unemployed and couldn't find a job from where they're from, which right now in the UK is a big problem. I'm looking at the situation in the UK and saying, well, this is an escape route and a solid positive one for a lot of people who maybe don't have three kids who are in school or whatever. And even if you do find the right job, I mean, some of the international schools here will ship your family over and pay for the flights. I'm not saying those opportunities are around every corner, but for the right candidates, there are institutions that will fund you, support you, take care of your continuous professional development. And it doesn't matter whether you were well, it does matter. Your life experiences matter. It matters if you were a doctor, it matters if you were a solicitor, it matters if you are a bartender. All of it matters.

Daniel (34:53)
But it doesn't matter that you don't have to have been any one particular thing. What really matters most is your character, who you are. Are you open to new experiences? re you professionally capable of caring about students? And that's not a big leap. They're human beings like everybody else. Treat them like your professional friends who you care for, and you're pretty much you're dealing with what's called local parents very quickly. That's not as hard as it sounds to do. You just got to be open to new experiences and willing to make mistakes. You're going to ask your students to learn by making mistakes. You must ask that of yourself as well. You must be ready to make a mistake. And if your students spot it, they'll call you out on it. And if you don't own up to it, they'll never trust you. But if you own your mistakes. They will love you to pieces for it. They love nothing more than to see a teacher who says, “I got that one wrong. Let's start again”.

Daniel (35:51)
A teacher who can laugh a little bit at themselves is a wonderful teacher. And I think we can all laugh at ourselves to some degree. Look at those really crazy bipedal creatures wandering the earth. But all things ludicrous.

Euan (36:05)
I want to get into kind of more teaching English kind of specifics with someone of your experience. I think we get really good insight on these. So just to change gears a bit, what's the biggest challenge, in your view, that non-native level English speakers have when it comes to spoken English?

Daniel (36:21)
Non-native level speakers? I think idioms. I think the fact that speaking primarily to a British audience, I presume today, but also American, Canadian and European audiences, we have so much idiomatic practice in English and Shakespeare and Shelley and Keats and Blake, we don't even know it half the time when we're speaking that we're accidentally quoting the Greats. And English is not a literal language. It's a language full of metaphor and hidden meaning and subtlety. And that is a huge challenge for non-native English learners - speakers, even as they advance through the proficiency levels and the higher up they get from A1 to A2 o to B1, B2, the learning curve gets steeper and more becomes expected of them. And that starts to - if you really want to achieve the highest levels of English learning as a learner, you have to commit to reading a couple of novellas. Maybe on some classic reading. It really will help you. I think, also on a slightly different level, we think English is spoken as we read it. It really is not.

Daniel (37:31)
The oldest example is Knife with a K and know with a K and Knight with a K and Q, what's that all about? Alfie. There's a great example that's a reference to a 60s movie called Alfie with Michael Caine in it. There's a great Michael Caine quote in a movie called The Quiet American. It's set in Saigon, Vietnam, and it's the opening scene.
And he says, upon landing in Southeast Asia, within ten minutes, your shirt is little more than a wet rag. And within 15 minutes you realise that you learn a lot on your first day here, and the rest takes a lifetime. That turned me into the world's biggest Michael Cain fan at one point.

Euan (38:10)
Not a lot of people know that.

Daniel (38:20)
And I'm also a big fan of a band called The Doors. So the first time I heard him telling me I'm only supposed to blow the bloody doors off, I was wrong. Yeah, the hidden meanings of English language are definitely one of the biggest challenges for non-native speakers. Even the teachers. How about 40% to 50% of my teachers right now are Cambodians, and they're wonderful. They understand grammar they understand the technicalities of the language. But the other half of the office is speaking in Northern English. We've got two great Mancunians, we got a Glaswegian, we have Dave, who's a Nottingham Forest fan from Mansfield, so there's a lot of northern English going on. And I walk in the office and just to wind them up, I drop into Boltonian and I would like a sausage roll.

Daniel (39:13)
and they're like, Boss, what are you talking about? You don't understand. All the name works. Fred Dibna would have a fit. What's a Fred Dibna? And like, Steeplejack. What's a steeple? You can wrap them in knots until they tell you to shut up, boss. Which is really fun. And I don't mind my teachers telling me to shut up when I get that.

Euan (39:45)
When it comes to teaching a class, how much patience is required? Because obviously you're acutely aware of the fact that English is so idiomatic and so kind of unusual and quite difficult to learn from an outside perspective. How much does patience play a part in your career in general?

Daniel (40:05)
How much does being patient matter? It goes a long way. I think you have to think about it at the start of any course that you're going to teach. Here's point A, here's point Z or 'Zee' for the Americans, and there's all these points in the middle. The students are going on a journey with you. It's not going to be an even speed. It never is. Think back to when you were in school. Was your learning, your English literature, even? Probably not. Was science? Probably not. History? Probably not. There were things you really enjoyed and it felt like they didn't last long enough and there were things you really hated and it felt like they would never end. Language is just the same, English language. There are parts of English language teaching I love and it feels like it's over in ten minutes. And then there are parts like the conditionals. This is me dropping my head on the table.

Daniel (41:01)
I wish this was over now. And students get the same way. So you do have to learn that experience of patience by doing.But if you're naturally a patient person, it's a good advantage - if you're not I'm not naturally a patient person, as my boss will tell you. The vice chancellor it's a skill I would highly recommend you practise being patient. It helps. I'm going to say something almost faintly religious. I live in Southeast Asia and Buddhism is very gently dominant here and it permeates its way through the air sometimes. Having been out here a long time now, I find that the Buddhist culture here really does help to temper my redheaded moments. I'm a redheaded ginger, as you can tell if you're watching my video, and I am a cliche of that sometimes and I'm quick to anger and quick to subside by nature, but also the amount of respect that students have here for you.

Daniel (42:06)
If you were to lose your patience in a classroom, you would terrify them even if you weren't going particularly off-the-wall, shows of anger are very counterproductive in a classroom. Students want a supportive teacher, no matter how tired he might be of explaining a point over and over again. Find it within yourself, because the reward at the end of it. There's this one student here, he's a year five student, and when I met him, he spoke barely a word of English. And now I bump into him once a week or so on campus. He won't shut up. He's a lovely, lovely person who is worth all the patience you're going to pour into a situation over and over. And I see how far he's come from A1 to top end of B2, probably, and just the joy he takes from speaking to me and the other teachers, this smile of achievement. I don't want to over-romanticise teaching, but it is wonderful.

Daniel (43:13)
You walk away feeling humbled and proud in equal measure when you see how that young man will go into a job as a dentist now, he will be able to do things that other dentists can't, because he will be able to read research papers in English. He'll be able to follow the best practise of Western dentistry. And we played a part in that. I mean, he played the biggest part. He studied his backside off, and that is his reward and he earned it. But we were part of his team, and he's got all his dental teachers as part of his team as well. And if you can find a school or a college or university where people adopt that philosophy, including the students, the rewards are never-ending. Not just financial, but emotional, professional. As a teacher, it's all available to you. And if you want to get involved with learning best practices, there's a whole world out there of academics who will support you, a great reading that will pick you up and inspire you to get back in, even on your worst day. And there are bad days in the classroom, let's not sugarcoat it.

Daniel (44:18)
There are days when all your best life plans fall to hell. You students are half asleep or they seem angry for some reason they can't explain. There are days you walk away thinking, what am I doing? I'm wasting these kids' time. Get back in there. Be patient, be forever patient, and the rewards will forever come to you.

Euan (44:38)
That's amazing. Thank you. So I used to call this part of the podcast Quick-fire Questions, but having recorded a few, now they're not Quick-fire, so we'll call them hypotheticals or general kind of hypotheticals… in general it isn't quite as snappy as Quick-fire. But we'll make it fun, whatever it turns out to be. Sure, it's a work in progress anyway, but the question I ask everyone: let's say money, visas, all the rest are no object. You can be transported to any country in the world.
Where would you want to teach the most? Aside from Cambodia? I knew you were going to say that.

Daniel (45:22)
Aside from Cambodia right now. Iraq. Iraq.

Euan (45:29)
Okay. Why would that be?

Daniel (45:29)
They've been through hell and back, just like this country has, and they're trying to get back on their feet, and they're a lot further behind than Cambodia. And if I had to leave Cambodia, and I hope I never have to, because I love it here, but if I have to, put me on the next flight to Baghdad with the visa and everything sorted, and show me a school, I can either teach in or ideally lead, and we'll get into it. And if I have to dodge bombs and bullets, so be it, because there's too many poor young people in the world who are not getting the education they deserve right now.

Daniel (45:59)
And for me, if you want to know why the world is such a mess, it's because we're not taking care of people's educations like we used to. It's become less of a priority. And you've got to start at the bottom up, and Iraq, for whatever reasons, which we won't get into in a podcast like this, is at the bottom of the heap. And those kids who are there and one of the youngest populations on Earth, just like Cambodia, they need support. And it's not about white man Saviour Syndrome, either. I don't want to go there as a white man teaching my culture. I want to teach practical skills. I want to teach something that will help them get a job, something that will put food on their families' tables because too many Iraqi children have to be in their families and not have enough food in their mouths, in their bellies, and not enough opportunities. I hate the idea of any child living a life where they don't have a chance of being the best person they can be. Start in Iraq. Start in Syria. That's the other one I go for. Any of those places that have been bombed to hell for whatever reasons, soon it's going to be the Ukraine. That'll be another one on my list. When it's safe to go there, they're going to need a lot of help.

Daniel (47:05)
The real help is at a practical level, whether you're an aid worker, an NGO worker, a teacher. These are the noble professions of the 21st century. That's about getting direct help to people, not just to get them through their day-to-day needs, but for the long term, an education. As was said a million times on the West Wing, it's a silver bullet. It cures all the other problems in the long run. You just have to believe in it and build schools and colleges and universities that are educational cathedrals. The rest will follow. Too few countries try it. Too few countries in poorer parts of the world have been allowed to for too long. Iraq needs schools.

Euan (47:52)
That's an incredible answer to the extent that is going to make the next question feel a wee bit trite. About Cambodia: we talked a little bit about food earlier. What's the best thing you've eaten in Cambodia? What would you recommend someone who's visiting to try?

Daniel (48:14)
I return to what I mentioned: the one Dollar special. And this is eaten by millions of Cambodians. A lot of Western is here every day. It's a very simple dish in Khmer in the Cambodian language, it's called - my apologies to anybody from Cambodia watching this. My pronunciation is either perfect or dreadful - it's called bai sach chrouk, which is pork and rice. Loosely translated, it does what it says on the tin. It's pork, it's rice. It's some lovely pickled cucumbers and radish slices and things in a little bowl about that big. Usually a fried egg on top of it. Although you can get some sliced omelette if you're a little bit healthier. And a bowl of a clear soup, usually with a few herbs and spices in it and possibly a couple of lumps of pork or chicken or fish or whatever survived from the last meal the night before in the family home. And that is a great way to start the day, with oodles and oodles of chilli sauce on. The hotter the better. That is breakfast in Cambodia, and it's eaten at most street corners.

Daniel (49:18)
And the very best pork and rice sellers here. Their families do well. They get rich. They have 4x4s and they're well respected members of the community. Yeah, pork and rice - the other good thing. Deep-fried Bullfrog is an absolutely gorgeous thing. Sorry, the lights just flashed off and on back on. This is one of the minor annoyances of life here, is occasional power cuts.

Euan (49:42)
It looks like we're okay. Well, I mean, you piqued my interest with deep fried, but I think that's the Scottish and me kind of rushing out.

Daniel (49:54)
You can get a deep-fried Mars bar here. It's not a problem. I wouldn't be able to last without it.

Euan (50:03)
But I have actually had one because I'm actually originally from its birthplace - it wasn't for me.

Daniel (50:09)
I understand it. It's whatever makes your stomach feel happy.

Euan (50:18)
This is it - moving completely on, what do you wish someone had told you when you first got into teaching English?

Daniel (50:24)
That's a really good question. What should they have told me? Once you start it, you can never extract it again from who you are. Once you become a teacher, you are stuck with it for a career. That's it. There's no going back. I suppose I mean, practically it would have been buying more grammar books. That's a practical one. I wish, as a native speaker, I just walked through the rules of grammar no problem. I'm clearly understood 99% of the time; when you try to explain why that's the case to students, every single grammar book is worth salt. Put it in your suitcase, it might be worth the extra $100. Or buy it when you get to where you're going to, which can be quite tricky in Cambodia, but we've got Bangkok next door, so it's not too bad. We have a lot of shipping issues here. Long story, but yeah, buy good books, buy good grammar books. Buy good teaching books, either online or offline, because that will be the hardest part of your first year as a teacher, is relearning your own language, of course.

Euan (51:35)
Yeah. Relearning your language is a really good way of putting it. Okay. A bit grander still what's the best piece of advice you've ever been given? Doesn't have to be TEFL-related.

Daniel (51:51)
Okay. It doesn't have to be TEFL-related. It's probably from my dad. God rest. Yeah, I'll be really happy to quote my dad. And he was quoting a politician whose name I can't remember, and it's a very famous quote, and it's as true in politics as it is in teaching as it is in any career that is centred on service of any kind. You can please some of the people all of the time. You can please all of the people some of the time. But you cannot please all of the people all of the time. That is especially true for whoever your line manager is in your first teaching post. Him and his team. Some of the time. All the time. All the time. Some of the time. But you're never going to put it off forever. Okay? At some point, you're going to have to upset them. Because sometimes the more you give, the more you get asked. Learn to say no politely at times, because when they see a talented person criticism, management wants to make the most of you. And if you've done a qualification with The TEFL Org, then you're going to be one of the most talented teachers in the staff room and the management are going to spot you and they're going to ask more of you and do more if you've got the energy. But when you're out of energy, call it a day.

Daniel (53:02)
Go home, have a beer or coffee or whatever floats your boat. Pop your Netflix on. Go see the sites. Go to Angkor Watt. If you come to Cambodia, do whatever it is that makes you happy. You didn't just do the TEFL certificate to be a good teacher. I'm assuming you're doing it to live a better life. Don't actually put the Netflix on. I should never have said that. I've nothing against Netflix. Good company. But turn it off sometimes. Get out there. Watch the sun go down over Angkor Watt. Watch the sunrise over the Eiffel Tower, whatever it is. You're a traveller. Clearly. Travel. See it with your own two eyes.

Daniel (53:42)
And this thing, the smartphone, the brick. Put it away. Drop it. Preferably down a well. It'll do nothing but annoy you and Instagram will ruin your life.

Euan (53:54)
I was asking you for the best advice that you've got. And so that's probably some of the best advice anyone listening will get. But just to finish off, a question about Cambodian culture. What from Cambodian culture should we be - I say we, in terms of a lot of the audience is going to be Western, I suppose - what culture from Cambodia should we all know about?

Daniel (54:24)
Yes, that's an easy one for me. I grew up in a very musical family. My father was an organist all his life. One of the reasons I really fell in love with Cambodia - I had Spotify for donkey’s years, one of the first 30,000 subscribers, I think - and I was walking along one day and it's part of what got me on the plane to Southeast Asia was Cambodia rock and roll music back in the 60s. They had a great king called King Sihanouk and he promoted the arts, culture and music. Even won an award at Cannes for one of his films. Anyway, I drift off the point. He was a great king and he encouraged musicians to step up.

Daniel (54:59)
And there was three of them that I absolutely adore. And amongst other genres of music that they wrote and performed, they developed Cambodian psychedelia, psychedelic rock and sixties rock and roll, and the three names that I think the whole world should know about. And if Sin Sisamuth were alive today - and sadly, all three of these singers were murdered by the Khmer Rouge - but if Sin Sisamuth was alive today, yesterday would have been his 90th birthday, his name Sin Sisamuth, he's known as the Emperor here, and he was the leading male singer of the 20th century. And he did so many songs with bands, and his family take really good care of his legacy here. And he's still the most popular singer in the country alongside a lady who was called Ros Serey Sothea, and she was just a queen of Cambodian pop and they would do a lot of work together.

Daniel (55:52)
They were a great partnership musically. And another lady who worked with both of them called Pen Ran, from what I'm told, a very tough but lovable character. And sadly she also died under the Khmer Rouge genocide. And they're the three big takeaways I take through music. These three who whilst they perished under the Khmer Rouge, they pulled off the greatest trick of all their music survived. And it will be getting played 1000 years from there. When nobody knows what the Khmer Rouge were, they will outlast all of them. And I don't like them just because of the tragic story. I like them because their music, at its best, is as good as anything that the Beatles, the Doors and the Rolling Stones were putting out in the late sixties. In my opinion. That's a very subjective opinion. But what it also inspired was another generation in the 90s, the Noughties and into the teens, a new generation of musicians who are playing and developing new Cambodian rock and roll.

Daniel (56:55)
And I've been lucky enough living here to meet some of the bands and do some music videos. I did one with a band called the Cambodian Space Project that's been so much fun. And the video I was in became a bit of a minor hit. It got performed on TV and now whenever I get in a tuk-tuk, half the time I hear, “oh, you're the guy from the video, Lazy Husband Blues. That was good.” It's just wonderful. I did it on like one hour's notice. My friend from the band was like, come down, spend an hour. So we spent 3 hours around the riverside area down the back alleys filming this wonderful video. And I got the second role to the singer.

Daniel (57:39)
I was playing her barang, her foreign husband, who drinks too much, eats too much, likes too much cigarettes, and is a bit of a fool and a buffoon. And that was my job in the video, to look like an idiot for three minutes. And I did such a good job of it, it helped it become a major kind of hit in Phomh Penh, less so nationally but in Phomh Penh, my word, I still get stopped for Lazy Husband Blues. And that was a good couple of years ago. Cambodian Space Project. Great band.

Euan (58:08)
I think that's maybe the 7th time in this podcast recording, I've just been absolutely staggered by something you said. I just love that I could not anticipated that answer at all. I think that's a good note. No pun intended. That's a good note to finish on. So a million thank you to Daniel Gillard. And thanks to you listener, for listening to ‘I English Abroad’. Please remember to leave us a review on Apple Podcasts, Acast, or wherever you find us. Keep subscribed to stay up to date with The TEFL Org and the ‘I Taught English Abroad’ podcast, and I hope you'll join us again next time. And just I'll give the last word to Daniel Gillard. Where can we find you for updates on your life in Cambodia?

Daniel (58:53)
You can find me. I don't do a lot of social media, but you can find me on Facebook. Daniel Gillard I'm pretty easy to find and keep an eye out for Cambodian music videos. They're all over YouTube and the Cambodian Space Project are reforming, coming back in September, and I am told I might be in another music video. And Iggy Pop’s a big fan and he plays them all the time.

Euan (59:14)
I mean, you can't really get cooler than that.

Daniel (59:20)
It's one heck of a cool country. Trust me, my stories, I'm not the strange one. Cambodia is. Cambodia is the most beautifully strange place on the planet.

Euan (59:25)
Brilliant. Thank you, Daniel, and thanks for listening and we'll see and speak to you again next time. Thank you. Lovely.

Daniel (59:35)
Thank you. Bye.