Fernanda Cwiertnia

Euan (00:00)
Welcome back to I taught English Abroad and today I'm speaking to Fernanda Cwiertnia. Now I did ask about the pronunciation of your surname and I'm hoping that was right this time.

Fernanda (00:09)
Yeah, it's great. I'm great. And I'm really happy to be here today and I'm looking forward to talking to you.

Euan (00:11)
Okay, thank goodness for that. See that's it. That's a good start. I can live for that. How are you doing today, Fernanda?

Well, I'm glad to hear that. We're excited about having you on. And you know, you're an English teacher of excellent repute and we'll talk a lot about your career and what you've achieved thus far. But, you know, it's amazing stuff. And your road to teaching English was a fairly unconventional one, even by the standards of this podcast. And this podcast can get, you know, unconventional. But can you tell us about the career that you had up to the point when you decided you wanted to teach English?

Fernanda (00:53)
Yes, perhaps I need to go as far back as high school. I'll try to be objective. But when I was in high school, once I finished the Portuguese test in 10 minutes and I aced the test, the teacher couldn't believe. And it turns out that after that, the school invited me to be a kind of tutor. Can you stay once a week in the afternoons?

to help students who have difficulty with Portuguese. And I was like, sure, of course. They paid me. I don't even remember how much it was or how little it was, but I accepted that. But it turns out that nobody showed up. You know, like nobody was interested. And at the same time, the students who were tutoring other students for chemistry and math.

They had a lot of students interested in that. So I think I somehow internalized that a career in languages should not be an option. So I ended up going to college to study chemistry. And I worked in, for a short period of time, I worked in a laboratory, but For the most part of my career, I worked for companies that manufactured laboratory equipment.

So I was constantly dealing with clients, but in my position at the time as a product specialist, I was generally teaching people and training people on how to use laboratory equipment, such as incubators, spectrometer, or stuff you use in a laboratory. And I was really unhappy about that. I didn't like it. You know, part of the job,

Euan (02:40)
Mm-hmm.

Fernanda (02:46)
involved teaching, like teaching someone how to operate equipment. But I was really unhappy about it and everything changed when I, I was actually in Germany for, for training. I was, I was working with heating systems. It was just, it couldn't have been more boring than that. And I.

I realized that like, okay, I was abroad. I was having a great opportunity and yet I just, I didn't feel it, you know? So I just basically came back home. I went to my parents' place and I was like, I need a break. I need to figure out what I want to do. And then one day I woke up with this brilliant idea, you know, like, you know what? There's this language institute in my city. I think I'm gonna go there and

Euan (03:19)
Mm-hmm.

Fernanda (03:40)
Maybe I can try to get a job. I was aware that they didn't ask for any kind of experience. As long as you spoke English, you'd be welcome to work there. So I went there. So long story short, I took the test. They liked me. I started teaching and it's been like that since 2011. And I don't regret it.

I am really happy now as an English teacher, so yes, it's been great.

Euan (04:11)
I love that. That's such a great origin story. But I do think we might have alienated our laboratory manufacturer audience, but that's fine. That's fine. I can live with that if you can. But so where was this language center that you're where you based? Just so the audience knows where did you where did you come from?

Fernanda (04:20)
You're a good boy.

I'm in Sao Paulo. Sao Paulo is both a state, and we have a state called Sao Paulo. We also have a city called Sao Paulo. It's a metropolis. It's the most economically important city in my country. So there were lots of job opportunities for teachers. There were just a lot of schools that are a lot of schools in the city. This one in particular was just very close to my place.

dry. I would drive there. It was like a 10-minute drive. And yeah, and if anything, you know, I studied there in the past. You know, I used to be a student there and I was aware of how the school worked. And I can't explain, I just woke up with this idea, like, I have to go there. I have to try this. And yeah, that's how we went.

Euan (05:25)
sometimes we've got the phrase in English, trusting your gut and if someone feels right, it feels right and that's been the foundation of your career. So you describe, and I love this phrase that you use on your website, you describe teaching as the air that you breathe. What was it about teaching that made it so attractive to you? I mean teaching in general, not necessarily just English, but the act of teaching. What was it that made you so compelled by it?

Fernanda (05:51)
You know, I'm a people person, you know, I like to connect. I like to talk to people. I like to get to know people. I like to talk to people who are different from me. And teaching allows me to meet people that I would have never met if I'd never started teaching. You know, like I've crossed paths with.

peoples from all walks of life. You know, I've probably read a book about my students, you know. And added to that, I'd also mention that I feel that this connection we have with a student is so fulfilling, you know, when you're able to transfer knowledge and you know that the knowledge you're transferring is going to help someone achieve something. So…

It's completely different from doing something, some kind of operational kind of work. You know, I don't feel I'm a cog in the wheel, in the wheel. You know, I feel that I'm making a difference. I'm inspiring and being inspired at the same time, because as I said, we get to meet a lot of people and we need people. Right. I think, I think this, this is the part of the job that I really appreciate.

being able to transfer knowledge and getting to know people. I love that. I wouldn't have Matthew, right? If it weren't for my teaching job, right? So I think that's the point for me. And then there's one more thing. Teaching, this is not a career that was a consequence of my going to college. I chose this. So…

I derive a lot of happiness from that, a lot of pleasure from that. So yeah, it is the air that I breathe, indeed.

Euan (07:52)
Yeah, I mean it's a great story, your particular career story. So, talk to me about, you began to teach, sorry my chair squeaked as I was asking that question, that would be a terrible idea. Okay, sorry.

Fernanda (08:06)
Just let me ask you something, can you hear this? Cause it started raining now.

Euan (08:11)
No, I can hear a little bit, but it probably won't pick up in the recording. So. And also it's raining here, too. So like the chances of there being rain in the background of one of our recordings is like quite high. So, yeah, where I live in the west of Scotland, it's pretty much always raining. So that's kind of we have to live with that. But where was I? Right. So. Yeah, you said.

Fernanda (08:16)
I hope not.

Right.

Yeah.

Euan (08:38)
you began teaching quote-unquote general English in 2011 and these were your first classes. So tell me what teaching general English involved and what kind of teaching experience you'd had up to that point. You mentioned in your previous life in chemistry that you did a little bit of teaching but what armed you for this particular experience do you think?

Fernanda (09:01)
I had no experience whatsoever. Like, I was completely raw. And, you know, in teaching general English, my first experience was, I don't even know how to describe it. The first school I worked for, three books were adopted.

like they called it book one, book two, and book three. There were basically three levels of English. The owner of the school had written the books and there were no directions. There was no training, you know, like there was no training. I was like, here's the book. So, and the lessons, I didn't teach groups. I would teach one-on-one.

Euan (09:32)
Right.

Fernanda (09:51)
So there was this book and then the student came to class. So I read the pages like 30 minutes before the lesson and I was like, I read instructions, you know, like I didn't really know how to do it. Eventually I got a job in a much better place in a more serious school, I'd say.

Euan (10:18)
Mm-hmm.

Fernanda (10:18)
And they adopted textbooks. They trained me. They instructed me, Fernanda, this is how you should do it. And despite advising me to use books, they also told me, make sure you're able to connect things to what's important for the student. And I think that that's when I started to discover myself as a professional because

there were lessons when it was literally impossible to follow the book because a simple conversation, a simple hello, how was your weekend would generate so much conversation and so much language that I would end up writing a lot of things on the blackboard. And many times we simply ended the lesson without even touching the book.

Euan (11:14)
Man.

Fernanda (11:14)
So this very beginning was very messy, you know, because there were students with whom I'd used the book and there were students with whom I would, sometimes I, and then I started to feel confident, I guess. So I started selecting pieces of authentic material. Like, oh, I read this very interesting article. Can I bring it to class and perhaps we can talk about it. Again, in this school, I was teaching 101.

Euan (11:34)
Mm-hmm.

Fernanda (11:41)
So I had a lot of, I had more freedom, you know, to try things. And yeah, it was, it was really a nice period. And I think it added a lot, you know, I wouldn't be the professional I am today. If it weren't for that experience and for, for the guidance I received, uh, when I worked for that, for that school, they, they really helped me, um, you know, figure out how to do things.

Euan (11:46)
Yeah.

Fernanda (12:11)
So I'm actually really thankful for that. Yeah.

Euan (12:11)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah, I can imagine. And so growing up, what was your kind of background in terms of English? What was your what was your I can't speak today. What's going on? Right. Sorry. So what was your what was your background with English? What was your English education like growing up? Because I've spoken to a few Brazilian English teachers and they say the standards can be very variable. Was that a mandatory subject at school or was it something that was a real personal interest of yours?

Fernanda (12:43)
Yeah, we started studying English before high school. I can't really remember when we started. I guess, sorry, can I start again?

Euan (12:58)
Yeah, of course. That's all right.

Fernanda (13:00)
Sorry.

Sorry. I'm trying… Yeah. Yeah, we generally start learning English at school around the age of 11 or 12, at least. That's when I started learning English. And unfortunately, I don't think regular schools in Brazil take this discipline very seriously.

Euan (13:04)
It's okay. It's… I edit this afterwards. It's fine. This is what it's all for.

Fernanda (13:32)
For this reason, there's a ridiculous number of English institutes around the country. If you come here and you drive around the city, you're gonna see language institutes everywhere. And it's generally, you would generally see a message like, speak like a native. So…

Euan (13:57)
All right, okay.

Fernanda (14:01)
unhappy with the quality of English lessons at school, my mother sent me to this language institute which happened to be a serious one. So I started studying English formally. Before that, well, I've always been a fan of the Backstreet Boys since I was 10, so basically I grew up listening to…

Euan (14:13)
Mm-hmm.

Alright.

Fernanda (14:29)
their songs and watching MTV. So there was a lot of input, you know, so although it was not really studying English when I was consuming music and videos. I think, I think I was somehow, I was aware, you know, of sounds and things. But then I started studying at this Institute. I stayed there for years, I guess.

Euan (14:57)
Mm-hmm.

Fernanda (14:57)
And that's, I think I probably reached maybe level B2 or something. And eventually I took a break because of college. Then I resumed my studies always at a language institute. At some point I worked with a private tutor. And yeah, I think the knowledge I have comes from these courses I took, but more than anything else.

Euan (15:17)
Mm-hmm.

Fernanda (15:26)
I'd say it's connected to the contact I had with the language, you know, on a daily basis, listening to music, watching things and stuff like that. Yeah.

Euan (15:41)
I do have to ask this because I'm really curious about it but see when Backstreet Boys are such an integral part of your inspiration to learn English and then maybe you're translating the lyrics. So a song like I Want It That Way, does that make less sense when you actually learn what the words mean or does it like because lyrics to that song are kind of weird.

Fernanda (16:02)
Yeah, you know, I think at the time, well, first of all, I wanted that way. It's not a good song. I'm a huge fan, but the lyrics are just, I don't get them very well. And I think my level of language awareness was really low at the time. So when, when I listened to a song, I had access to the translation.

But the translation was literally a translation and some things just didn't make sense. So I remember listening to things and thinking, what's that? I don't get it, you know? So it took me a while, you know, to, oh, okay. So this is something figurative. Okay, I get it now. And I think when we talk about music,

There are songs we just don't get, right? Because we don't know what was going on when the person wrote it. And yeah, I want it that way is definitely not my favorite. Definitely not.

Euan (17:12)
It's fair enough. To give you a bit of the other way around, there's a Brazilian bar in Glasgow and I've seen a room full of people singing Maskinada by Sergio Mendes without knowing what the words mean at all. So just for a bit of balance there.

Fernanda (17:29)
It's hard to translate, you know? Yeah, I think that's the thing about music. It's impossible to translate and there's a lot of… I don't know if I'm going to use the right term here. Correct me if I'm wrong, but regional language. Maybe that's not the term, but a singer from the North…

Euan (17:31)
I can imagine, yeah.

Fernanda (17:59)
might say things in a different way, you know, like there's maybe slang and colloquial language, I'd say. So, yeah.

Euan (18:02)
Yeah.

It's tricky. It is a tricky one. It is good! It is… No, it's…

Fernanda (18:14)
Just the parenthesis here, if this is not good, you just… I have no idea what I said. I also think I mispronounced something, so it's just awful.

Euan (18:23)
No, genuinely you haven't. Your English is better than mine, I can tell you that. So you talk about having an unorthodox personable approach to teaching, which I don't doubt at all based on this conversation so far. The reviews that you get suggest that it really works, it's really popular. Did that style come naturally to you or was it a style you developed over time?

Fernanda (18:47)
Oh, I think it's a combination of things. As I said, it came naturally to me, you know, to drop textbooks with some students. Like a simple hello was enough to generate a lot of language. But I spent years doing that and feeling that, okay, maybe I'm doing something wrong because teachers should be using textbooks. We should be following a structure. So I took the CELTA.

I learned how to teach. Although I had a lot of experience when I took the CELTA, I relearned how to teach, but it just didn't work for me. You know, I can't pre-teach vocabulary. It just doesn't work for me. And over the years, I've noticed that pre-teaching vocabulary does work with some students, but it doesn't work with other students.

So around, I guess it was 2020, I joined a community for teachers. And in this community, we talked a lot about teaching methods. And that was when I learned that there was a term for my teaching style. That's when I started studying more about Dogme ELT, in addition to TBLT.

So I read more about it. I even took a course on Dogme ELT, a course with Scott Thurnberry, and I had the opportunity to have a one-on-one tutorial with him and talk about reactive teaching. We talked about materials-like teaching. We talked about teaching writing in a reactive way, teaching speaking in a reactive way. And as I said,

this is what I love about my job, you get to know people. So I got to know a lot of people. And we talked a lot about how to teach, we shared our insecurities, our ideas. And I think that's how things started to come together, you know, for me when I started teaching exams. I didn't teach exams the way I teach today. I…

Euan (21:05)
Mm-hmm.

Fernanda (21:06)
It's funny, you know, for general English, I felt confident to drop textbooks, but when it came to exams, I still felt that I needed the book. So it was a long process until I realized how to tackle exams and how to be less dependent on textbooks and as a consequence, deliver a more meaningful learning experience, you know, something that students can continue after the lesson.

And not something that only happens in the classroom with a textbook. So, and The point is I'm still developing, if we talk again in five years, I'll probably be doing things in a different way because I strongly believe in constantly assessing yourself. That's why I ask my students for feedback, let me know what you think of this lesson, is this good, is this not good?

Euan (21:36)
Sure.

Mm-hmm.

Fernanda (22:05)
because this helps me do better and deliver what they expect. It's really about them. My teaching is very learner centered. It's not about me, it's about them. So it's been a process, it's still going on and I think it's going to happen for the rest of my life, for as long as I teach, I'd say.

Euan (22:29)
So I want to talk about some of your students. Who is, would you say a typical student for you and what are their motivations for learning English?

Fernanda (22:38)
Nowadays, my typical student, my ideal client is an English teacher. I work with English teachers 90% of the time. I guess at this moment I have only one student who's not an English teacher. I mean, except for the groups. In my groups, I've got both, like teachers and learners and language lovers.

Euan (22:45)
Okay.

Fernanda (23:06)
Basically, people who come to me, whether they're teachers or students, they come to me because they feel insecure, they feel they need to acquire more knowledge of the language. As far as teachers are concerned, of course, they come because they want to acquire more knowledge, but what they generally ask me is, Fernanda, I…

I need to learn more language because I need to improve my teaching. So I do a lot of work on language awareness because if you're not language aware, you're never going to be able to stop learning lessons. You're never going to be able to teach reactively. Nowadays, a student can come to me with, it doesn't matter, I'm ready to deal with. I'm not saying I know everything.

but I know how to tackle everything, even when I don't know the answer to something because of my language awareness. So people who come to me, they want to, you know, like sometimes they, like there's a lot of advice on social media. Read a lot, do this, do that. I myself experienced this when I was preparing for C2 proficiency.

People would tell me, read a lot, read a lot. I was like, okay, but how do I read? What should I pay attention to? So these students who are teachers, they come to me and we work a lot on how to explore what you're reading, how to see language, how to decide what is worth paying attention and what is not. And there are no rules because different students have different weaknesses.

Euan (24:34)
Mm-hmm.

Fernanda (24:59)
So two students might read exactly the same text, but they're gonna extract different things. So they come to me because they want to be language aware, because they want to be proficient in the language. There's this, you know, like, like non-native teachers, we desperately want to show the world that we know enough, you know, and…

Euan (25:12)
Yeah.

Fernanda (25:27)
I don't think textbooks help us acquire as much knowledge as possible because textbooks bring lists of words and it's just so overwhelming and we end up feeling that we know nothing. So why not make this more enjoyable? Why don't we just go online and just read something we like, something that is meaningful to us? So I teach them how to derive pleasure.

Euan (25:34)
Uh huh.

Fernanda (25:56)
from learning, from consuming content in English. And similarly, students who are not teachers, they also come to me because they want to become proficient in the language. Yeah, it's basically this thereafter proficiency. Proficiency is what they want. And in the case of teachers, as a consequence, this language awareness allows them to…

improve their teaching, to maximize and optimize their time, preparing less, because they can teach more reactively. Yeah, sorry, I think I've spoken too much.

Euan (26:36)
Hmm.

No, though, that was a really good answer. And just something that kind of popped up from that. I'm just wondering, in your view, do you think that the infrastructure for teaching English, the textbooks that you speak of and the kind of materials that teachers are told to use, do you think they're made with, you know, with non-native perspectives? And do you think there's enough there to support non-native English teachers? Because it's clear that there's a bit of, and it's not just yourself, I've spoken to every non-native English speaking teachers who

they maybe don't feel that the material that's made available has a more rounded perspective. Do you think there's something in that?

Fernanda (27:16)
That's the whole point. I don't think textbooks should be designed for teachers. You know, like, the focus should be on the student. The problem is, if the book doesn't help the teacher, will it really help the student? So I think maybe the question we should ask ourselves is how much do we need the book to transfer knowledge?

sometimes we see people saying, oh, I'm not learning because the book is not good. And I agree, some books are just not good. You know, like, I'll never forget once I worked with a book called Top Notch. And one of the chapters was called Dental Emergencies Abroad. And it was like, how relevant?

Euan (28:10)
Okay.

Fernanda (28:15)
is that. So it's, I don't think it's about whether or not it's good for the, it's terrible for the teacher, right? Whether you're native or non-native, it's depending on the topic, it's terrible. So if we, like if we, the facilitators, you know, if we are not able to, to connect with the book,

Euan (28:16)
Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Fernanda (28:39)
How can we help students? So I don't think, I'm not saying burn all textbooks. I'm not saying that, I'm not in favor of that. But I think we need, as teachers, we need to learn how to use the book to our own advantage. And I think that when we're constantly following step by step, sometimes talking about something that is not relevant.

Euan (28:49)
Mm-hmm.

Fernanda (29:06)
I mean, I'm not saying it's not relevant, but something the student is not really interested in, I don't think we're helping them. So perhaps if I were teaching that lesson on dental emergencies abroad again, perhaps I would try to connect that maybe to travel insurances like, hey student, have you ever

Euan (29:12)
Mm-hmm.

Fernanda (29:31)
needed that. Let's look at what's available online. Let's visit some websites. Would you like to have this if you were to travel or not? Try and sense whether the student was really interested in that. But listening to people reporting dental emergencies. So you see, I don't think it's a matter. It's really, it should be about the student.

Euan (29:32)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Fernanda (30:00)
And I think that's why I tend to feel reluctant to what's proposed, reluctant to accept what is proposed sometimes. But I'm not saying you should burn it, okay? It's not that.

Euan (30:19)
Mm-hmm. No, no, no one's suggesting book burning here. No, although now I think about it. Have I ever had a dental emergency abroad? I'm not sure I have. We'll see if it does come up now. I'll get in touch with you. But in terms of carrying out lessons, you've said on your website, I'm pretty sure, you said you don't like the triple P approach and there's other frameworks that you're not, I mean, we've talked about a framework that you're not too really interested in as well.

Fernanda (30:28)
I

Euan (30:43)
For those who don't know, what does PPP mean and why wasn't it for you?

Fernanda (30:50)
presentation, practice, production. Basically, presentation means, hey students, today we're gonna talk about the dental emergencies abroad. Here are five very important words for today's lesson. So I teach you five words, and then during the practice stage of the lesson, I'll give you a couple of exercises.

Euan (31:03)
Hehehe

Fernanda (31:18)
where you're supposed to use those words, supposing it is a lesson focused on vocabulary. And of course you're gonna get everything right, because I've just taught you. But it's complicated because sometimes you don't get the right answers, even though I've just taught you those words. This becomes even more critical when we're talking about grammar. So, student, here's present perfect.

Let's do some exercises. I don't know what is worse, getting the answer or not getting the answer. Because getting the answer means, okay, you learned, but how are you gonna apply that when you're talking, when you're communicating? And when you don't get the right answer, it's like, oh my God, what's wrong with that? And then the last stage production, we're talking about producing language, whether it's written or spoken.

Euan (32:06)
Mm-hmm.

Fernanda (32:14)
And I think the worst nightmare of a teacher is teaching a lesson on past perfect and during the production stage, your students use simple past. Because the whole point of teaching a lesson on past perfect is to get students to use the language, to produce language using past perfect. But I am sure that every teacher listening to this…

Euan (32:36)
Mm-hmm.

Fernanda (32:43)
I'm sure they might have experienced this, you know, teaching A, asking students to use A and the lesson ends with students using B. Is this a problem? In my opinion, it's not a problem as long as communication happens. If communication happens, I mean, what's wrong with that? So I think that when we force students to use certain words or certain conjugations, we're not…

Euan (32:54)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Fernanda (33:11)
helping them, you know, develop. We want them, like, imagine if before recording this, you told me, Fernanda, so we're gonna record this, I want you to use these, this, and this word. I want you to talk like a British person. I can't, you know, I might be able to use a few words here and there if you ask me, but I will never, like, you can teach me everything about how to sound, how to sound like a British speaker, but I won't be able to do that, you see?

Euan (33:23)
Mm-hmm.

No.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Fernanda (33:40)
Does it mean we won't be able to communicate? No, right? So I think this is my criticism of textbooks. I should have said Scottish accent. I'm sorry. I'm sorry, I'm nervous. And also worried about my accent. So I think this is what I was trying to illustrate.

Euan (33:58)
That's alright, I forgive you. Quite alright.

Fernanda (34:10)
uh here i don't think we're really helping them when we tell them do this in this way otherwise it's failure you're not good so yeah that's my criticism of the ppp approach

Euan (34:27)
You touched on it before, you offer mentorship to teachers and you teach teachers. You said 90% of your students are English teachers. How has that been and what have these teachers gone on to do? Do you follow their careers once they've, I guess, graduated?

Fernanda (34:42)
Yeah, when teachers come to me for mentoring, like they generally have a problem, like, Fernanda, I have to deal with this kind of student. I don't know how to do it. So they bring me typical situations and we talk about how they can do it. Of course, by the end of the session, I don't think they go and immediately do what I've taught them.

I think it takes a while to start to implement things. A lot of teachers come to me to learn how to deliver writing feedback. How to deliver writing feedback. How to tell the students something is right. How to tell them something's wrong. How to tell them that something is right, but it could have been better. What should we pay? What should we?

Let me say that again. What should we be paying attention to? So I've been doing this a lot lately, teaching how to deliver writing feedback, how to use colors, what to pay attention to. And this helps them deliver feedback to their own students. And yeah, so I think they, when I help them, I'm helping them

not just become better teachers, but we eventually end up talking about the business aspect of this. So when you're able to deliver a specific kind of service that is not up for grabs in the market, maybe you can charge a little bit more, maybe this is good for your business. So we sometimes talk a little bit about business.

As I have been building my business little by little. And so, yeah, I end up sharing a lot with them. And I can't say, oh, somebody took a session with me and they became a superstar. No, it's not like that because.

Euan (36:37)
Mm-hmm.

Fernanda (36:51)
we have to implement things like little by little. We learn today and tomorrow we try something different and then a little bit more and then a little bit more. And eventually we transform the way we teach and the way we do things. Have I answered your question? I don't know, maybe I got carried away.

Euan (37:11)
Yeah, no absolutely that's a great answer. No, that's a great answer to the question. Although, you know, you're very modest because if it was me I would say like, yeah, everyone I've taught has gone on to be an absolute superstar and they've reinvented the language and all this kind of stuff. But then, you know.

Fernanda (37:25)
I think these people have become confident professionals. You know, they might not be Instagram superstars, but they've become confident. They're doing a great job. They messaged me, Fernanda, what you taught me has really helped me. You have no idea, look at this. And then they send me a message that a student of theirs sent them. So I think this is what I meant, like…

I think at the end of the day, feeling confident and not losing faith in yourself is really what happens. Like, hey, there's a way out. Fernanda's helping me here. I'm doing a better job. I'm feeling confident. And I think that when we feel confident, we're powerful. The sky's the limit. We can do everything when we feel confident. I think maybe I was not so modest. No.

Euan (38:24)
No, I love that though. That's that. I love that.

Now, your website is even for an English teacher of your repute, your website is really, really good. It's got lots of different sections that I like. You list your favourite verbs and your favourite idioms on your website, and I'm a big fan of idioms. I find them fascinating. So what's behind your love of idioms? Because they're so strange. They must come up a lot when you're teaching because like…

A lot of them don't translate directly or what's your kind of what's your take on the idioms in general? That's not too big a question.

Fernanda (38:57)
When I was putting my website together, I was like, okay, I have this space here. What can I add? And I was like, favorite idioms. I'm being honest. I wouldn't say I love idioms. I think idioms are part of my work.

Euan (39:03)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Fernanda (39:25)
When we talk about Cambridge exams, there are some parts of the reading and use of English paper where certain expressed fixed phrases, idioms, they're tested there. So idioms end up getting a lot of attention when we are preparing for an exam.

So it's not that I love them, but I teach them because I know it's gonna be important for the exam. But it's not like me to tell a student, use this idiom. And it can be complicated because as you said, sometimes there's no translation. Like how can I translate that? And sometimes even if we try to understand what it means,

Because of cultural things it may not make sense, you know and It's complicated because just going back to textbooks and stuff. So Textbooks focus on exam preparation bring a lot of idioms a lot. It's really overwhelming I remember when I was preparing I was like I'm never gonna memorize all that and That made me feel that I'd never become proficient

Euan (40:43)
Mm-hmm.

Right.

Fernanda (40:48)
And so what I basically try to do with my students is, okay, unfortunately, we need to memorize some idioms if we want to pass the exam. You don't need them in your life. Uh, there's this idiom, it's raining cats and dogs. People say nobody uses it. So I generally try to make my students aware that not every idiom is used.

Euan (41:02)
Thanks for watching!

Yes.

Yeah.

Fernanda (41:17)
and they don't need to use idioms. So one thing I try to do is, okay, we're learning this idiom. So what is the formal equivalent? How can you say that in a formal way? And I think this is what is missing in textbooks. We have a long list of idioms and very little work on formal language when we desperately need formal language for the writing paper. So what I like to do is,

I strongly believe in rephrasing as a form of development. Write a sentence using an idiom. Write exactly the same sentence in a formal way.

In this way, you're practicing writing, you're becoming language aware, you're also practicing for keyword transformations, which is part of the reading of the English paper. So I wouldn't say I love idioms. In fact, I think I hate them, you know, because it causes a lot of students to make mistakes and therefore doubt their potential. So I think they're part of.

Euan (42:06)
Mm-hmm.

Fernanda (42:20)
You know, they're part of the journey. But once you pass your exam, okay, you got your pass, you got what you wanted. Don't even lose sleep. You know, like if you, if you want to use them, it's fine. If you don't want to use them, it's fine. And sometimes I post idioms on Instagram and I get a lot of comments. Oh, native speaks, native speakers don't use those idioms. This is so pointless.

Euan (42:22)
Mm.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Fernanda (42:44)
And I think people don't get it. The point is not to tell them to use the idiom, but to make them aware of the idiom for exam purposes. But I'm curious to hear your take. Do you use idioms in your daily life? What's your relationship with idioms?

Euan (42:55)
Mm-hmm.

I think in general, I think English speakers from the UK and the US, but probably more the UK, use a lot more idioms than I think they realize. And it's only really when you sort of sit, if you got, for example, a page of writing, I mean, I actually did an article about idioms and it wasn't until I was about halfway through I realized I've used three here without even like really thinking about it.

So yeah, it's bizarre and it's another thing when I've learned, well, I tried to learn other languages. It's not something that comes up as readily, but, you know, idioms are just kind of scattered across the English language. So apart from idioms, I think this is a really, really good area to mine into a little bit. From a non-native English speakers perspective, as someone who has done all the learning and all the teaching.

What do you think are the hardest areas for English learners in terms of everyday speech and phrases, idioms aside? Are there any other areas that maybe native speakers wouldn't necessarily think about?

Fernanda (44:04)
Let me make sure I understand your question. Just a break here. You're asking me the areas where learners have the greatest difficulty.

Euan (44:07)
Thanks for watching.

Fernanda (44:19)
This is not just about speaking, right?

Euan (44:21)
No, no, just in general. I mean, idioms are difficult. I was just sort of wondering what else is particularly difficult. It's the kind of thing that if you were raised with English, you might not necessarily think is difficult.

Fernanda (44:25)
Oh, okay.

Mm-hmm.

Okay, from the native perspective, right?

Euan (44:39)
From a non-native perspective, yeah. From your perspective, it's supposed to.

Fernanda (44:41)
from a non-native perspective.

Well, let me know if my answer answers your question or otherwise we can do a retake. Just cut this, please. In my view, writing is the most challenging part of learning. Let me, sorry, I'm going to say that again. In my view, in my view, writing is…

Euan (44:49)
I'm sure I will. Ha ha.

No worries, as long as you want.

Fernanda (45:13)
the most challenged part of the English language, whether you're a native or a non-native speaker. Why do I say that? The language we use when we're talking is completely different from the language we use when we are writing. Of course, if I'm texting someone, run-on sentences are not a problem. But if I'm writing an essay…

Euan (45:31)
Mm.

Mm-hmm.

Fernanda (45:38)
run on sentences are a problem, especially if you're aiming at proficiency. We need a conjunction there. We need a conjunction to connect two complete thoughts or two clauses. And I think this is the challenge because sometimes students, they write a text, which is very clear. We totally understand what's written there.

And you tell them, hey, but I'm penalizing you here because you're not connecting these two clauses. This is a run on sentence. And they have a hard time internalizing that. And they ask me, but does anybody say that? No, this is writing. This is not speaking. And…

Euan (46:18)
Mm-hmm.

Fernanda (46:20)
It's interesting, you know, I ran a course, I ran the second edition of a course last year and had a native speaker taking the course. It was a course focused on advanced grammar. And it was so interesting because we had her perspective, you know, like from the perspective of a native, like relearning her own language. And basically the course focuses a lot on syntax.

Euan (46:44)
Mm-hmm.

Fernanda (46:50)
And naturally, it connects to writing. And she was really surprised that certain things that it is OK to say wouldn't be OK to write, in case it is formal writing we're talking about. But even maybe even for a post on Instagram, I'm careful. Although it's not formal, I want to make sure I'm using like

Euan (47:03)
Mm-hmm.

Fernanda (47:18)
I'm really connecting my clauses. I'm not writing in the same way I would speak. And the point is, if it was challenging for her, who's a native speaker, can you imagine how challenging it is for non-native speakers? It's even more challenging. And I think writing is not really a priority. The things happen too fast. Who wants to write? Like we want to communicate.

Euan (47:21)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Fernanda (47:46)
So writing ends up being not very important. So I think only those who are truly interested in developing the ability end up mastering it because there's this genuine interest in learning. But this is definitely the greatest difficulty. Memorizing a list of words, that's a piece of cake. How am I gonna use an idiom here? It's a piece of cake, but.

gathering your thoughts, organizing your ideas, writing in a way that engages, and at the same time doesn't look too informal, like, okay, I'm talking to you as if I were your friend. So I think like figuring out what makes good writing, I think this is the challenge, you know, starting from.

Euan (48:31)
Mm-hmm.

Fernanda (48:42)
ideas and then thinking about organization and then thinking about connecting ideas and then thinking about vocabulary. So in my view, yes, writing is the hardest skill to be mastered, I'd say.

Euan (48:51)
Uh-huh.

Absolutely. That's really, really good insight. I've not actually heard anyone say that before. There is such a distinction. Now, you strike me as someone who's extremely honest and based on our conversation and on your Instagram content, which is really, really good. We'll provide links at the end. I have to ask you this and I have to ask you in a direct way. English grammar. Is it a nightmare to teach? Can it be made fun?

Fernanda (49:24)
In no way is it a nightmare, at least not for me at all. I love it and I think my students can sense how much I love it. So in the process of transferring my knowledge to them…

Euan (49:27)
Good, okay. Tell me why.

Fernanda (49:43)
I think they see how passionate I am, that they fall in love with it too, you know. I don't think it is a challenge to teach. I can teach you now. The challenge is on your part to internalize. I think learning grammar is difficult. I can go and teach exactly the same topic from as many different perspectives as you can imagine.

Euan (49:48)
Mm.

Fernanda (50:12)
I think the challenge is more related to how can I open your mind to what I'm saying? How can I make a student understand that there's no right and wrong? You know, like a run on sentence is not wrong if you're talking, right? But a run on sentence is wrong if you're writing. I could say something like this, oh, I love exercising. I exercise every day.

But imagine if I told you, I love exercising and as a consequence I exercise every day. It's ridiculous, right? So I think this is the challenge, you know, showing them that you don't need to hate grammar. You need to understand that different circumstances will ask for different grammar. It's not like, okay, you learned this here today in this lesson.

Euan (50:52)
Yeah, you're completely right.

Fernanda (51:09)
And that's the only language you can use. No, it's not like that. So what I really try to teach them is to gauge, how to use the language. We don't have punctuation when we're talking. So I think this says a lot about what's right and wrong. So I think this is the challenge.

making them understand that there aren't nuances, you know, and nothing is black and white. But unfortunately, the great majority, like a lot of people believe that there's right and wrong. Why? Because we teach using textbooks where there's only one correct answer, two correct answers, if it's less controlled practice, for instance. So I think it's really about

demystifying this idea that grammar is difficult, grammar is impossible, or advanced grammar is only like cleft sentences. Oh wow, this is only for advanced students. No, it is not. I can be teaching a beginner and ask him who takes out the garbage in your house and he's going to use a cleft sentence. Oh, it is my dad who takes out the garbage. So I think it's really about this, about showing that

Of course there are levels, but it's not so black and white. You know, we need to embrace this idea that many are the possibilities. So it's not a nightmare to teach. It's actually fun because I'm constantly bringing examples. They're never going to forget. And yeah, I think they have fun and I do too. So I think, no, it's not a nightmare. It's…

really a privilege to be able to teach grammar in a fun way, you know, in a way that is not boring and overwhelming and repetitive. So that's how I feel about grammar. I think you can sense my passion, right?

Euan (53:20)
I love the enthusiasm. Yeah, that's a great answer.

Now, I have to ask, you've built a business from the ground up. You've got a massive online following. And like I do with other guests, if I put a number to how many people are following you on social media, it'll be redundant by the time the episode goes out because it'll have gotten way up. Because that's just what happens. But can you tell me what it was like building your business?

Fernanda (53:39)
Hehehe

You know what? I think I started building my business before I even considered building a business. For me, everything started when I decided to prepare for the Cambridge C2 proficiency exam. I created an Instagram account to help me memorize, guess what? Idioms. So I was like, okay, if I put a post together, I'm going to be memorizing it instead of writing things down.

Euan (54:06)
Okay.

Fernanda (54:14)
Maybe I can create a post, put everything on Instagram, and then I have my own library. Eventually people started following me. I started talking about my preparation. I started talking about teaching. And when I passed the exam, I started to have a lot of demand for lessons. At the time I worked for a school, and teaching exams was just a side hustle. You know, like I…

I'd be working for the school like 70% of my time and 30% of my time, I'd be working with private students. And I never stopped producing content for Instagram. I've always been very candid, you know, and really open about my struggles as a teacher, as a student. And I think people eventually felt interested in that. Sometimes I might share a few things about

my personal life that might be interesting for them. And little by little, I left the school and started working only with students. But the reason why I think my business has grown so much is because I never really stopped developing. You know, okay, I passed C to proficiency. I'm proficient. But it doesn't end there. I think…

Life starts after proficiency. Now I'm not under pressure to perform. I'm free to learn. So I continued learning and I therefore started putting other types of posts together. Posts focused on more than idioms. Posts focused on grammar, how to learn grammar, how to teach grammar. I shared reflections about learning and teaching and I shared a lot.

Euan (55:48)
Mm.

Fernanda (56:08)
And this helped me, going back to what I said at the beginning of the session, connect with people and, Fernando, do you have group courses? Fernando, do you do this? Fernando, do you do that? And then you sense that people want to work with you. So I think the first greatest thing I did was creating a workshop. My first workshop was Above and Beyond Textbooks.

Euan (56:15)
Mm-hmm.

Mm.

Fernanda (56:36)
how to prepare for an exam and go the extra mile and how to be less dependent on textbooks. And after this, I became more and more confident. Okay, I've just run a workshop. Maybe I can create a small group, small speaking group. So I've been running workshops. Now I've really taken my business to a higher level. Now I've created courses.

Euan (56:39)
Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Fernanda (57:06)
I work with groups. I'm really a company, you know? And I've never stopped producing content. People need to have a taste of my brain, you know, like, otherwise how am I? I can't go there and say, hey, buy my course. I'm great. I can't, right? I have to show them in a different way. And.

Euan (57:27)
Yeah.

Fernanda (57:35)
I forgot what I was going to say. Yes. Uh, I can't. Yeah. So, so yeah. Uh, so I've never, um, stopped producing content, but lately I've decided to channel, uh, my, my energy into my newsletter. So it's interesting because when I started, I never thought of what's the point of a newsletter who reads an email, you know,

Euan (57:39)
It's okay, take your time.

Fernanda (58:04)
But then you start to read more about it, you talk to people about it. And I started writing a newsletter, I think 15 months ago, and it's become huge, a huge part of my job. I send monthly newsletters. I write mostly reflections on teaching and writing. And I feel this has helped me connect with more people.

Euan (58:11)
Mm-hmm.

Fernanda (58:35)
outside Instagram, but again, there's a lot of sharing, you know, like sharing experience, sharing knowledge only to a certain extent, right? Because I still want people to become clients. So it's been a very hectic, it's been very hectic because for instance, today I'm teaching three lessons but I'm working for eight hours.

Euan (58:40)
Mm-hmm.

Mm. Yeah.

Fernanda (59:04)
is because there's a lot of like, I have a lot of admin stuff to do. Content creation. I have to reply emails. I haven't hired a person to work with me, to work for me. I'm not there yet. Who knows? I might do that in the future, but I think everything was possible because of Instagram, it's a window. You know, you put yourself out there.

Euan (59:22)
Uh huh.

Fernanda (59:31)
and you show the world what's good about you. And I'm really thankful. And here I am today talking to you, being a guest on a podcast. It's my third podcast. I would have never dreamed of that a couple of years ago. So yeah, it's a very hectic. It's like, to those of you who are listening, and if you want to build a business, you will get nothing in return.

Euan (59:40)
Mm-hmm.

Fernanda (1:00:00)
when you start, it's gonna take some time. But as long as you don't give up, it's very unlikely that it's not going to pay off. That's what I'd say.

Euan (1:00:03)
Uh huh.

That's amazing advice and I really, I mean myself included, I'm sure a lot of people are going to be signing up for the newsletter now as well, but you kind of touched on it there about plans for the future. What are your goals moving forward? What would you like to achieve in the short and long term?

Fernanda (1:00:27)
You know what? Lately I've been toying with the idea of writing a book, you know? I have really… like the response to my newsletter is really good. So I started to think, why not? Just something I need to tell you privately. When is this going to be out?

Euan (1:00:56)
Probably… probably end of March, start of April.

Fernanda (1:01:03)
Okay, okay. It's because I'm pregnant and I was… Thank you. And I was… because my plan was to take the Delta or I was divided between the Delta or a master's degree. But now my plans are on hold. But I don't know if I want to say that. Yeah.

Euan (1:01:07)
Oh, congratulations.

Mm-hmm.

Sure, yeah.

Absolutely, we can skip this question if you want to. If that's fair.

Fernanda (1:01:30)
No, it's fine. I'll just say that I've been also considering getting a master's degree as I've been working with. Yeah. And in addition to my plans, sorry, and besides perhaps writing a book, I'm not gonna lie, I'd like to get a master's degree. I love studying, you know, I like reading research papers. So I really think it's something that

Euan (1:01:43)
Mm-hmm.

Fernanda (1:01:59)
would make me happy and more knowledgeable. And last but not least, I'm currently recording a course that's going to be out in the second semester. It's called Foundations of Advanced Grammar. And it's going to be my first asynchronous course, so 100% asynchronous. So I'm recording it, and I'm really excited about that.

Euan (1:02:29)
Brilliant, so last but not least, where can people find you? Where can people keep up with your newsletter and all things Fernanda? Where should I direct people?

Fernanda (1:02:40)
You can go to my website, fern You can read my previous newsletters there. You can message me and I'll be happy to reply to you. And as we've been talking, I'm also on Instagram. You will find me there as fern You can DM me. You can leave a comment.

And I'll be glad to reply and talk to you. As I said, I really like talking to people, so I'll be happy to hear from you. Yeah.

Euan (1:03:19)
Well, all the best with your future plans. It sounds like a really, really exciting time for you. But yeah, we'll have to end it there. But thanks so, so much for talking to us.

Fernanda (1:03:28)
Thank you, it was really nice.