Frank Carrizo Zirit

Intro - Frank (00:00:00)
I was scared because I thought he was gonna really, you know, like pull up my ear and then saying, what the hell are you doing? And and. And no, it was totally the opposite. It was a very big confidence boost.

Euan (00:00:13)
Welcome to another season of “I Taught English Abroad” where we cover a range of topics from the world of TEFL. This podcast has it all, from passport stamps to recruitment, tips for teachers who want to be Internet sensations, finding accommodation in far-flung locales and so much more. Subscribe now so you don't miss any new episodes.

Euan (00:00:31)
An exciting part of hosting a podcast is having the opportunity to meet people with totally different life experiences to you. Whether it's Brazilian English teachers working in British courts, rapping teachers, former politicians teaching English in Cambodia, you name it without I taught English abroad, I never would have met our next guest. And what a shame that would have been.
Frank Carrizo Zirit is a Venezuelan American teacher who was something of a child prodigy and has more qualifications than he can shake a stick at. We talk about bilingualism, the joys of studying dialects, and his own podcast. Unfortunately, I had a couple of sound issues with this one, but it's fine. You're not here to listen to me, but be warned.
Here's Frank's story.

Euan (00:01:25)
So it's always a little bit daunting when on the podcast I host, I've got a really, really good podcaster on the other line, it always raises the stakes a little bit. But you know, we've, we've chatted and I think we're gonna be OK. I'm here with Frank Carrizo Zirit, who has an absolutely fascinating story. I can't wait to get into it. How are you today?

Frank (00:01:43)
I'm doing great. Thank you very much for extending the invitation.

Euan (00:01:47)
Oh well, not at all. It's been it's been an absolute pleasure finding out about you and a your story that I really do think the listener is going to get a kick out of this, because there's some incredible stuff in there. So first of all, you know, we'll take it right back to the start - because where else - I want to know a little bit about your upbringing, because people will hear that you've got an American accent, but you do also have a Spanish name. And how important was language and language diversity in your childhood?

Frank (00:02:09)
Oh well, that's a very interesting question because yes, I have a Spanish-sounding name. I was actually born in Venezuela, so my family is originally from, I mean… My parents are originally from Venezuela, but my mom's family is actually from Syria on on her father's side. So we grew up with a kind of cultural mix. In my family, I lived in the US for a long time since I was a kid and that's, you know. Hence I have this accent even though I've lived in the US for quite a long time, (and) away from the US for a long time, it's funny because when I talk to my friends back in the States, they usually say “ohh, your accent has changed”. Definitely. So it's I think it's, you know inevitable. You know it's obviously… but in terms of you know culturally growing up speaking at home we spoke Spanish.
Of course, that was the language my mom hated it when my younger sister and me, my baby sister, and me spoke.
And we kind of, you know, we used to do it just to, you know, in the complicity of… my mom doesn't get it so…

Euan 00:03:21
Yeah, it's it's always useful to have other language if you're if you're in any sort of trouble, I would imagine. So your schooling and your early educational path is is particularly interesting to me. And I remember you telling me in the chat that we had beforehand, that I still just absolutely blown away by it.
So tell us about your schooling and and going to university. Because it may not sound like the most pertinent question, but I think our listeners will know a lot more about you with the answer to this.

Frank (00:03:45)
Yeah, well, as you know, I grew up in the States. So I had… all my schooling was in English. Of course my my literacy. But that's why I usually say that my literacy skills are a lot better in English than in Spanish. I mean, I speak Spanish fluently. I have no problem. I mean, I actually have professional proficiency when it comes to Spanish. And have no problems about communicating with my students here because I'm living here.

Spain also, when I used to work for International House Madrid, I had to do like parents meetings, so I had absolutely 0 problems, you know, communicating in Spanish. But when it comes to language, I feel more confident in English. You know, reading I… I would say that reading a book for example, I would understand more.
Like, I would get more from the text in English than in Spanish, even though when I was a kid growing up, my mom was the kind of person that would make sure that we, you know, didn't lose that Spanish that we spoke because I grew up in Florida. So you would know that in Florida, people tend to mix English in Spanish.
And my mom hated it, and she didn't want us to, you know, have, like, pick up the Spanglish from, you know, the South of Florida, Miami.

Frank (00:05:02)
And she would have me and my sister actually sit down and do newspaper reading so she would put us, for example… “OK, so you have this article, read it, and then I will ask you questions about it”. Of course. I mean, my mom would never get into that. Like, deep into “oh, so tell me about this. What's the main idea of that?”
No, I mean, basically she would encourage us to, you know, like give our opinion, what we understood from the reading simple stuff. But I think it was enough for me to really love languages in general, because it… not only did I like English of course, but also Spanish. And another thing is that I discovered later the reason why.

Frank (00:05:42)
But, you know, studying linguistics that my mom told me that I I went through a kind of silent phase. For example, when I was 3/4 (years old) I like, suddenly stopped speaking like I was not communicating because, you know, we had reason to move to the US and I went through a silent period and then all of a sudden I started speaking both languages like, boom-boom, like non-stop, I mean like clearly and fluently English and Spanish. Then later, of course, you know, through this, you know, my studies, I discovered that it's very common in bilingual kids that you know, when they come from another culture and then you know I was, I was kind of a heritage speaker. So in Spanish, but still.

Euan (00:06:29)
And what was it like being part of these two (separate cultures)? Because obviously in Florida, there is a huge kind of Spanish-speaking contingent and it's very diverse. There's a particularly diverse state even by American standards. How did it feel to have a sort of foot in both camps in terms of, you know, culture and upbringing? Did you feel that was a kind of hospitable environment for that to kind of be the case?

Frank (00:06:49)
I would say that in my particular case, I mean I'm not describing a general situation, but in my case it was a little bit difficult to adapt. Because, I mean, coming from a Latin American family, I never… my classmates would make sure that I would never feel fully American, like growing up in the States. And when I was, for example, back in Venezuela, you know, visiting my grandmothers, cousins, family. People will also make sure would also make sure that you know I didn't feel Venezuelan enough, so you're kind of in the middle in a situation in which I didn't feel fully American. I didn't feel fully Venezuelan.
So I think living in Spain has allowed me to be myself in a way because for sure, like 100%, I’m sure that I'm not from this country, so I don't have problems with my identity as you know, as a person and linguistically, I mean, I always went through this sense of, I don't know, feeling like…

Frank (00:06:49)
Like you know, that feeling of that you're a fraud, you know, like you're not good enough to to speak Spanish. You're not good enough to speak English. And I think that drove me, you know, to be an English teacher in, in a way. I mean, of course, there were a lot of other things, but I would say that that that was an element that you know, was very present when I decided I want to do this.

Euan (00:08:15)
And that academic path for you is is one that's it's just, there's a litany of aims and courses that you've done that I I wanna hear all about and we will get to that. But before we kind of get there, can you tell me about how the academic path presented itself to you. and when you realised that you wanted to follow that particular thread. Was there a point in your schooling where thought where you thought like, well, I'm just gonna start this now or was it a different kind of journey?

Frank (00:08:42)
Before I became a teacher, I went through a certain period because in my case, for example I was diagnosed with ADHD early. Well, not early on, but later I discovered that, you know, that was the case. But in my case, for example, I was always like the genius in class. I mean, I was, I always, you know, spent time studying, reading, learning. I would spend - because my dad was the finance director of a small publishing house, it was a very, very small publishing house - but you know, my house was filled with books.

Frank (00:09:16)
And I would spend literally, I would spend hours just looking at the illustrations first and then reading, you know, the text and articles and the encyclopaedias and stuff. And for some reason I was. So, you know, into it that I remembered lots of the things in those books. And I started, like, memorising stuff like so easily I that's probably why I excelled in my study.
Which is probably the reason why I graduated from high school when I was 15. So legally I was 15. I turned 16 right in the first semester of University of college, which I started when I was 16. So a lot of people was shocked, you know, like so young and starting university. I didn't know what I wanted to study I studied architecture, I did the first two semesters of architecture and then and then I studied graphic design because I like artistic things. I thought that was my calling.
I felt frustrated because it was not exactly what I wanted to be doing and right after that, when I was 18, I went to, you might say, but you were so young and went through that period of not knowing where you were going. So I felt frustrated. I didn't know what to do.

I remember that around that time we went back to Venezuela and then I didn't know what I wanted to do. So a lot of friends, neighbours, they started coming to my house and say, hey, you speak English. Can you explain this to me? Because I have an exam next week and then I realised…
I understand this, I can do this, I can actually do this and I would. Of course I would go first with my intuition. I would say, why do you say this? Well, I think it's because of this. And I remember I made up a lot of stuff. Like, I would tell people, oh, you say this because of this. And I would create my own set of linguistic…

Frank (00:11:15)
…Methodologies and stuff, I would literally make up stuff. Some of them were true, some of them, most of them were not true, but I had that inquisitive mind, you know? Like, I wanted to know. And then I discovered I really like this. And this is probably the reason why I decided to become a teacher.
Then I    entered a programme. It was a joint programme between the American Embassy and the government of Venezuela. Then I became… I did like, an associate’s degree - like you would call in the UK a foundational degree. And that's how I became a teacher. You know, two years of studies and then I did some practicum. That was the practical part of the foundational degree and then I started working in Venezuela as a teacher and from then on it was like non-stop. I had other jobs of course.
I mean, I remember I worked part-time at a hotel, a 5-star hotel. I worked at, you know, Pizza Hut. When I went back to the US I worked at Pizza Hut and Quiznos and and whatnot.

Frank (00:12:21)
I mean, like, lots of different franchises but I always kept on teaching until, you know, I took it really seriously when I moved from Venezuela to Spain back in 2007, I realised that I could continue my dreams and advance. I first did the CELTA, a wonderful experience with the CELTA like 2 years and 1/2 after that, because that was in 2014 when I did the CELTA. Then in 2017, I did the DELTA with International House, both of them with International House.

Frank (00:13:00)
And yeah, I learned a lot of stuff, you know, you learned how to challenge yourself as a teacher, you know, like challenging your convictions. And then I decided to go for a full degree. And I'm still doing it, of course. But, you know, I'm working doing so many things at the same time, you know, podcast, examining work, university so…

00:13:24 Frank
So I know I have to do the last year. It's almost done. I have very little to finish, but I'm doing English studies, a degree in English studies at the university, the Complutense University in Madrid. It's what they used to call philology. You know, English philology. So basically, it's literature and you know, linguistics.
They do both things and yeah, I mean that’s… that’s what I've done so far in terms of education and I always keep on learning. I mean I've done, also, courses with different universities back in the States and, you know, here in Europe as well, different programmes that I've you know… for example with the Oregon University - that was through the American Embassy again, and it was a like a special programme that ran for quite some time.

And yeah, I mean, I’ve done lots of different things. I always try to keep active, you know, in terms of learning because, you know, you always… I mean, to me learning is like a never-ending thing. So basically I hope that summarises a little bit of my academic path.

Euan (00:14:33)
It does, and you've actually sold yourself a little bit short there because, you know, we could mention the University of California, Irvine, Leding University in the Netherlands, the University of Melbourne, a specialisation courses you mentioned, Oregon and Arizona State. I mean, we could do a whole podcast on on your academic life because it is genuinely that interesting.
But I mean, just going over kind of the appetite that you had that you had for study. And, whether or not you were sort of able to teach and study simultaneously. You know, with each qualification, did you feel a sense of kind of… being a more knowledgeable teacher?    Was it like having immediately transferable skills from each course that made you think: “OK, I can teach this now” or “I've got a different perspective of teaching this, now”? Did you feel you were getting stronger with each academic pursuit?

Frank (00:15:18)
Yes, I would say so. In my case, for example, I bet it's probably because of the kind of person I am, because I like knowing the reason why something happens.
So, for example, I remember that in the beginning of my career as a teacher, I mean people would ask me questions like, “what do I need to improve?” or “why am I not improving on this area?”. And I would probably come up with something that, you know, students would hear like, |oh, it's this and this and this” or you would probably repeat what you hear, you know, in the staff room, like what other teachers comment. You know, like they say this and this and this. But I think that in a way, teachers, they should pursue…

I mean, in my case, I mean it's been essential. But I think every teacher, at least language teacher or English teacher, should delve a little bit at least a little bit into academia and learning. For example, reading papers, academic papers and trying to find out what's what's going on because, I mean, for a long time, for example, just to talk about something in specific, you know the multiple intelligence, the multiple intelligence theory.
You know, nowadays we discarded it because it was just, you know, air. Basically, we were selling air. We thought about the multiple intelligences as being really useful for the classroom and for many years I bought it. I mean, for many years, I really tried to tailor my lessons and my classes to, you know, visual learners and kinaesthetic learners. And deep down, I was, like, trying to force myself to, you know, to go into that.

If it wasn't, if it hadn't been, for example, for the fact that I kept on digging and reading and listening to other experts, I wouldn't be in the position that I know I know for a fact that it was just smoke. It was just smoke and it's not based on research, for example.
To that level, you know, pursuing an academic, you know, doing academic studies has improved my vision of the language. My vision of education and how I can translate that into the classroom. Because, I think that's also important, how you can… It’s not only understanding the methodologies and understanding the, you know, like you understand this and this and that.
But how can you translate it? And the most important thing is how you can make it accessible to students, because sometimes, you know, you don't want to bore students to death, you know, with, you know, random explanations about, “oh, linguistically speaking, this is this” or “the reason for this is this”.
It's mostly because you have that understanding and then you know how to translate that to a level that students, you know pretty much like mediation. You know, when you do you mediate something and knowledge that you explain to another person to make it more accessible. So, to that level, I mean, I think that my academic studies have helped me perfect my craft as a teacher.

Euan (00:18:25)
Absolutely. And from, you know, a practical point of view, you’ve been able to sort of maintain your roles in teaching while taking on these academic kinds of ventures. And I guess, yeah, from a practical point of view, what advice would you give to TEFL teachers who maybe they say that this is not the most effective, or maybe they say that they don't have the time to do it. There are those kinds of barriers. What would you say to TEFL teachers who have that same level of curiosity as you but see these barriers and think maybe it's not for them?

Frank (00:18:59)
I think, well, because I went through the same process, mental process, when I remember back when when I started of course, I wanted to know a lot of things. I wanted to learn why this and why that. And of course, you try to read a lot of stuff. There are things that aren't really interesting to you.
I think finding, exploring different aspects, different things or making mistakes, even making mistakes…I made a lot of mistakes when I was, you know, starting out as a teacher and even when I was, when I even consider myself to be like an experienced teacher still, I mean, and I don't want to say that I'm not making mistakes now. I am of course, I'm like everybody else, but…
At least, I have a more open mind in terms of, “OK, so this is what I like. This is what I don't like. This is what I what I can see that I can take for myself and and and use it effectively in my teaching”. I know there are a lot of things to learn. I think that specialising in something would help in my case. For example, I didn't know that I was going to be so interested in assessment until I became a Cambridge Examiner. I had the opportunity with the International House.
And I liked it. It was a way of getting trained because, you know, examiners get training. So we get, you know, like our certification sessions. And, you know, we learned, of course, we learn the practical stuff, you know, how to, you know, ask the questions and keep up with the timing. But we also learn a lot of, you know, theory. We learn a lot about understanding how to assess this and this and that. So it's very practical. So in my case for example, going through the training as a Cambridge Examiner helped me define the path that I wanted to follow. So for example, now that's the path that I like. I mean I like assessment. I like spoken interactions. I like for example writing or reading about intelligibility.

Frank (00:21:09)
You know things like that or global English global understanding or communication English as a lingua franca and things like that. Dialects in general. I love dialects. I like studying dialect.
That's for what they are, but also see how they can improve learning and teaching in a way because I know that this is something I noticed because I have my tick Tock account and I realise that a lot of people, you know, they feel fascination towards accents. Like for example, “oh, and I'm trying to learn English”, but then they play a clip from, you know, an interview with Adele, you know, with a Cockney accent.

Frank (00:21:50)
You know, it's it's even hard for native speakers to understand, so… but dialects in that case for example, I think they're interesting. They could be used in the classroom, you know, to teach something. Or in the case of understanding different accents. But, you know, getting delving into those things has helped shape my…
Different areas, in which I want to narrow down, I think it’s about exploring. I think that’s what it's about for people who you don't want to specialise in something. I think it's exploring and finding your own path, you know, like finding what you like, what you don't like and how how you can effectively use it in your, you know, teaching career.

Euan (00:22:32)
I love that answer and we are going to expand a little bit on dialect so that I'm not just you know, trying to get ideas in your head about about whether or not Scottish accents are best. But anyway, we're gonna we're gonna take a quick break and we'll be right back with Frank.

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Euan (00:23:26)
And we're back with Frank. Now, we mentioned that you've studied dialectology and that. So it sounds fascinating to me. It sounds kind of bad, but I didn't maybe realise how prominent I think it was, that it could be studied. Which English language dialects did you enjoy studying the most, and which do you most enjoy hearing most? And I'm not again, not trying to plant ideas in your head. You know, you can speak freely.

There is a right answer, obviously.

Frank (00:23:50)
Well, I have to say… I have to say the Glaswegian accent.

Euan (00:23:56)
There you go.

Frank (00:24:01)
Glasgow. Ohh it's amazing. I have a few friends from Glasgow. I actually worked with a friend of mine who's from Glasgow. We work together as examiners. She is amazing, and she has the most beautiful accent I've heard in English. I don't know if you came across this clip that became sort of viral on the Internet, this guy talking about his daughter and he was talking about the brows, the Dad…
And he would say, like things like, “do you like my brows? Do you like my brows?” And I was like, Oh my God, is it's just fascinating for me from a phonological point of view because I do pay attention to those stuff to that stuff. You know, like the illusions, the reductions, the trilling. Ohh God, it's just amazing. So it's one of my favourite accents to listen to. Like, the other day a a friend of mine showed me the video with this British MP from Glasgow…

Frank (00:25:13)
Who was speaking in the House of Commons, I think. And then this Lord was saying, can you repeat it in simpler English? And he was he was talking about rules and laws for disabilities and people with, you know, people who are disabled. And I was like I can of course… I agree that it was hard for me to understand.
But if I listened closely, I would get what he was saying.

Frank (00:25:41)
And for me, I mean, I've never been to Scotland ever in my life, and I could probably make out what he was trying to say. Another another accent that I love. I know it's language. It's a full-fledged language, Scots is amazing. It's just… I would spend hours just listening to people speaking Scots.

Euan (00:26:07)
Yeah, it's even within Scotland. The diversity of dialects, and the diversity of colloquial speak and different accents is amazing, I think.

Frank (00:26:11)
Yes.

Euan (00:26:17)
Like and it's such a kind of bugbear of mine, and people talk about, you know, they say like, oh, you're doing a British accent or you're doing a Scottish accent because there's so many different ones to kind of mine there. Yeah. And so you you mentioned it a little bit before about, about, about your students and and what they want to learn. And maybe I'm getting this wrong. And if I am, let me know. But when learners come to learn English from you. I mean, do they want to learn a type of English that's more akin to like received pronunciation? Like a sort of BBC Radio, kind of English? Or do people have specific wants to speak a dialect or to speak in an accent that's not necessarily like received pronunciation? Am I looking at this wrong or is that…?

Frank (00:26:58)
No, I think no, you're right. I mean, I think that people come with certain like, let's say, ideas about learning English. And I think that when when students come to me and they say I want to learn British English or I want to understand British people…

Frank (00:27:16)
I mean that tells me of course, that they have very little knowledge about how English is used in, let's say for example, the British Isles. There are so many differences like you would go… you would go from one village to the next just 50 miles away, and that would be a completely different accent. And in that case, I mean, just go with the flow.
I mean, I don't tell students that because it's, I don't think that they will be ready to understand that, you know, that there's this complexity of dialects and accents and variations in in the UK alone. I would say I I would probably tell them that it's just enough just to be yourself, understood and understand other people. I don't see the reason why, for example, you should understand a Scottish accent unless you're going to be living in Scotland. I mean if.. I always tell them, for example, I always go with a quote by David Crystal, you know that David Crystal says that there are three non-native speakers to each native speaker of English in the world.

So, chances are that you will probably have to speak or communicate with another person whose first language is not English, who speaks English as a second language or even as as a third language? Chances are that unless you're going to be living in let's say, London or Leeds or Glasgow or let's say Yorkshire or Newcastle, you will not probably have to struggle trying to understand what people are saying.
So then again, when it comes to the US, I mean in the US, I know it's a big country.
Even though the accents are, you would say that there's not so much variation in terms of pronunciation. Of course, it would have different weird and difficult accents to understand. For example, it took me years for me to, you know, to really understand Appalachian English, you know. I should say Appalachian, because my friends from there, we would say if you say Appalachian, we will throw an Appalachia (apple at ya).

Euan (00:29:36)
I like that.

Frank (00:29:37)
I will throw that Appalachia. So, you know, trying to make fun of you. Yeah. A lot of people say Appalachian, but yeah.
Anyway, so in my case for example, I would say that the only accident that took me a lot of time to really understand and it's not only because of the pronunciation, it's also because of the lexical component of the language. I mean, it's the way they speak. They use a lot of words and expressions that are not very common in American English. But yeah, I mean, I would say that American English.
People have this idea of the Midwestern accent. But you know, I mean, when people say no, I want to learn American and understand more American. I mean, people have this vague idea about accents. And then when I tell them, like, where are you from? I mean, here in Spain, for example, you have like so many different accents. And is it easy for you to understand a person from this, let's say this villagem this far away village in the South of Spain. No, it's difficult.
I mean it's it's it's all about trying to be understandable and and strive for intelligibility and also - and this is funny - because when I give reactions, sometimes I have classes in which when I prepare students for exams we watch videos. Like, videos from YouTube, you know, the official Cambridge Channel and what I'm critiquing the videos and I say well, in this case, pay attention the student did this and they did that.

And then my students, they get so caught up with, you know, small things. “Oh, no. But she didn't say this like this. She said it like this”. I said it's understandable. I mean, there's nothing in the criteria for examiners that says, oh, you should say this like this. No, it's just if it’s intelligible.

Frank (00:31:29)
She has a C1 level, let's say. Let's say we're analysing a C1 level exam or, you know,    a speaking test. And people get so caught up with these things. Like so many small things, that it doesn't make sense. I mean, if a person from another country came to you speaking in Spanish and they don't say, for example, better, you know, “dog” correctly.    But can you make up what they're trying to say? Yes, of course. Well, that's the point That's the point, and the person can make, you know, can can can get their message across flawlessly, maybe with note perfect pronunciation, but that's fine. That's that's the whole point of communication.

You know, when I get to that level, when I get students to see that, then they understand what I'm trying to tell them, you know like it's not about British. It's not about American. It's not about this accent in particular. It's just it's English. I mean, it's international. I mean, you probably have to, you know, you know, make yourself understood, basically.

Euan (00:32:36)
And just to go back to your own background again and how this kind of ties in. As a bilingual or multilingual person, there are a lot of different perspectives. I've talked to other multilingual guests, for for our podcasts and they have different perspectives on how useful it was to learn two native languages, if you like, or to be in a household where English wasn't the only language every single time the guest said to me that they feel that their English, their understanding of theoretical English concepts, is strengthened by the fact that they learn another language in certain symbiosis.
Would you agree with that perspective?

Frank (00:33:10)
Yes. Because in my case, for example, I would say that I learned Spanish at home with my family. And of course, you don't get, you know, that exposure to like this literacy that you would get exposed to if you went to a regular school. So in many ways, I mean, I did a lot of… In my head, I mean, I was contrasting and comparing both languages all the time, and I would ask myself questions like “why do we say this in Spanish like this?”. But something simple, for example, how old are you? Simple question. How old are you Understanding, for example, that in Spanish it's not about being old or young, it's about the years you have been living on the earth. And that would explain why, for example, in Spanish, the question is how many years do you have? That would be the, you know, the translated version of in Spanish wouldn't say cuantos anos tienes.

How old are you? It's it's something basic, but it's understanding the way people focus or channel the language. I mean, in English you are old and you are a number of years old.
In Spanish it’s how many years you have, let's say, been living as a person, let's say things like that and in my head, I would always make those comparisons. Ohh in Spanish you you like hungry. For example in English you are hungry, but in Spanish you have hunger. So those things, I mean, I would always compare those things and and growing up bilingual, I mean growing up speaking both languages. I mean I always compared and in a way when I became a teacher and understanding grammar and learning for example, you know, phonetics, phonology, I would learn a lot of things about Spanish as well, I would realise for example understanding phonemes and allophones. For example, I would realise that “oh” in Spanish we have that sound not exactly as a phoneme, but we do have it as an out phone.

You know, like just to give you an example, sing, you know, sing. I know that a lot of people say sing. It's perfectly fine, but the standard pronunciation would be the person who sings as a singer, let's say singer. I would not pronounce the GI, and would not make the hard G that's the standard, right? I'm not talking about variations or dialects, but that's the standard. But in Spanish people would say singer, right? And I would make them understand that, well in Spanish, we you do have that sound, the N sound. And when I do, when I do a little bit of drilling with them, they realise. “Ohh yeah, that's right. In Spanish we do say that.”

So that level of understanding of both languages and and and making those comparisons always, I mean in my head when I watch just to give an example, when I watch a movie in English and the movie has Spanish subtitles, I'm always comparing and translating.
And saying “That's not the translation!” for example, but I'm always comparing things. I mean it can't help it. I mean it's something that my brain does. Do I get tired?

Frank (00:36:43)
Sometimes, but it's I guess it's so many years of, you know, training and and then, you know, forcing my brain to do those things that, you know, it's OK. I can do it. So I can do that, those things quickly in my head. So, comparing languages definitely helps learning English, you know? Like studying the language and the grammar, the phonology and phonetics and and and all that stuff, I mean, of course has strengthened my knowledge of Spanish as well.

Euan (00:37:15)
It's interesting actually. I'm trying to learn Spanish at the moment, and I like the way that learning other languages can force you to look at your own native language, which is the phrase I don't love. But I thought particularly the phrase “Lo Siento” means, I'm sorry in Spanish. Literally, if I'm right here, it literally translates to, I feel you.

Frank (00:37:32)
Yes, I feel it, yes.

Euan (00:37:34)
Yeah, that I like that as a way of kind of expressing remorse, I guess? I just, I think that's a really interesting way of kind of looking at it, but.

Frank (00:37:42)
I would say it's more empathetic, I'd say.

Euan (00:37:45)
That's it. Yeah. Yeah. But I say that because, Lo Siento, we're gonna have to have a break and we'll be right back with Frank.

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Euan (00:38:30)
And we're back with Frank. So we kind of got to know each other via our respective podcasts. I'm really, really delighted to join this one, but I want to know more about the What You Say in English podcast because I'm really, I'm impressed by it. I think anyone who hasn't listened to it should check out immediately after this. But what were your kind of goals with that podcast?
From a teaching perspective, and and to those who haven't listened, can you kind of explain the format for us and how it works? It's a little different.

Frank (00:38:55)
Well, in the beginning, I wanted to make a podcast. I didn't have a clear idea about what I wanted to do. I remember that in one of the examining sessions, I remember that I went with a couple of friends who were also examiners. One of them actually wrote a book. Well, the two of them actually wrote a book together with for Delta Publishing. I think it's a book about mediation. Ricardo Carpini. That's his name. And I remember we were examining and then we were in the break and then he said, “dude, you should do it!”. Well, he didn't say it like that, of course, but he said something like yes, I in my head. I remember it like that.

So he said, “dude, you should start a podcast”. And I was like, really? “Yeah. You have a nice voice. You should definitely start a podcast.” I've never liked my voice, to be honest. I mean, nobody likes to listen to their own voice. He said no, no, no. Seriously. You should start a podcast. What do you think I should talk about?
“I don't know, I mean, but you should start a podcast. I mean, I like listening to your voice”, and I was like, OK, great, that's good. And then after that, another, I remember another friend said the the subject came up and then he said “Oh yeah, definitely. I could definitely see you, you know, doing a podcast.” Then time passed by, I left International House. I started working for another school and the pandemic hit.

And I remember that in the summer of 2021, that was around the time that, you know, the pandemic was, you know, at its most at the highest point. And I remember that I was, I was, on holiday summer holidays. And I was like, you know what? Everybody was at home and locked down and I you know what, I'm going to start my podcast. I'm going to start my podcast.
And then I started thinking you know, I like examining. That's, you know, of course I'm a teacher, but I'm also an examiner. And I'm like, I think I think I'm going to do. I wanted it to, to be like a call-in show that would people would ask questions about this and that about exams.

Frank (00:41:10)
But then I thought no, I don't think it's realistic. I think it's better if I can collect people's recordings. I mean, like, people would send me their recordings and then I would critique their recordings using Cambridge criteria, you know, not as an exam, but, you know, telling people what they do great, where they need to improve on.
And things like that. That was that the initial premise and it worked for, I would say most of the first season of the podcast. And I started getting involved in Facebook groups and, you know, getting learners to send me their recordings, and I also had interviews with students. Then I would always focus on Cambridge criteria and then from time to time, I would release an episode, for example, explaining things, explaining the criteria. Not only did I cover Cambridge exams, I also covered IELTS exams. Because I've been teaching IELTS exams for, you know, donkey’s years. I also worked as a clerical marker for Cambridge, which sends for the reading and listening papers. So I would actually correct the answer sheet.
And yeah, I mean that would be the idea of my show. And then when I talked to my friends and colleagues and coworkers, they would say “that's a great idea. I mean, I'm I've never thought about that. I think that it's a very unique idea”. And I kept it for three seasons. By the end, I started inviting friends and colleagues and other people, other experts and you would see that in the last episodes of season three, which is the last season I invited some, you know, friends I've made, you know, my network on.

Frank (00:42:53)
And yeah, I mean, I got to invite quite a few people and then yes, I mean that's what I did. I mean it's a, I mean hiatus. I mean, I'm not doing the podcast now, I would like to retake it. The thing is that I did it for three years and I spoke so much about exams.
And I felt like, what else can I do about exams? I think I've said a lot of things, and I was. I didn't want to repeat myself. Then, that was around the time in which I started the TikTok channel. So in the TikTok channel, I have a little more freedom and all of a sudden my audience exploded, and practically overnight I went from 1000 followers to basically 250,000 followers and it was mind-blowing. Right now I'm not doing anything because, I mean, I changed jobs. I'm now working for another place. And you know, I also moved houses.
I mean, I moved to another place. So, you know, I was doing a lot of things.

Euan (00:43:57)
So I’m gonna take a step back and go into brass tacks here. Tell us about your teaching, like what was your first job like? Because I know you have this amazing academic history and you've dealt with so many students, and you know, your career is incredibly impressive. But what was your first job like? Because, we kind of touched on it a little bit earlier on and you're kind of giving sort of informal kind of lessons and things like that.
Did you feel even though you had all this knowledge and you had all this academia ahead of you, do you still feel, you know, those kind of first class nerves like everyone else gets? What was that like for you?

Frank (00:44:27)
Well. Yes, well, the first job I had was in a high school, I was basically covering for another teacher the teacher had left, so they were on a leave. I think it was a maternity leave. I can't remember. That was many years ago and I remember that I had to cover for her and I was very young. I was 21. So you can imagine I had to teach teenagers.
And there were practically 15, 16, so I was barely like five years older than them. So I it was very scary. There were a lot of things that I felt really, you know, not really prepared, but I think I went through something that stick to me and I still remember. I remember once that I was teaching a class and I was having this activity teaching, for example, verb to be in the present simple. And I was doing this activity and I remember that the principal passed by and then when the class finished it, he said. “Can I talk to you for a second?” I remember that was, I think it was my first two weeks.

Frank (00:45:34)
And then “can you come to my office?” And then I went to his office and then he said I really love what you did with that class there. The way you explained that. And then the way you did that. And I was like, I was scared because I thought he was going to really, you know, like pull up my ear and then say, what the hell are you doing? And no, it was totally the opposite. It was a very big onfidence boost, even though I made later mistakes, of course. But yeah, I mean, it was a very big confidence boost. I mean, it was… I still remember it.

Euan (00:46:05)
Before we go to another break, I just sort of wondered, you have this amazing online presence and we talk about, you know, 250,000 followers on TikTok and your Instagram and all these kind of other things you've got. You've run your business online. Was there a point in your career where you sort of went from off from offline to on or was it kind of a gradual thing? Can you tell us about about that?

Frank (00:46:27)
Well, I've always been a teacher. I mean, that's what I've done. I've had, as I said before, I mean, I've had other jobs. I mean, I worked at a hotel. I remember that I worked for six months. I worked at a shipping Navy. It's an agency that was in Venezuela. But I had to be like a translator. So I had other kinds of jobs as well.

Euan (00:46:46)
OK.

Frank (00:46:47)
But I would say that I was always a teacher. I mean, I always had a job as a teacher. But yeah, I mean, I would say that that teaching is in my life. I mean, I don't see, honestly, I don't see myself not doing it. If I stopped teaching, I would probably go into writing, writing books or I don't know, something related to teaching as well. Editing probably. Maybe working for one of the publishers. You know the big ones like, you know, McMillan, Oxford hire me, please.

Euan (00:47:19)
Yeah, we'll we'll “at” them in the description.

Frank (00:47:22)
Yeah, I'm, I'm kidding. But yeah, I mean,we're probably moving to more, you know, probably teacher training. I've done teacher training, of course. I mean, I've done workshops and that's something I would like to, you know, to do because I think that I've come to a point in my life in which I feel comfortable sharing what I know. I mean I feel because it's something that you also have to, you know, like it's it's not easy to get to that point, you know like and not feel like a fraud. You know, I still have that tinge of feeling that, you know, I'm I'm not that great. But then again, I mean, when I get feedback from people, friends and then say “well, wow, Frank, I mean, I've learned so much from you”, and I mean colleagues and other teachers as well and, you know… I think I've gotten to that point in which I would say that I feel comfortable sharing what I know.

Euan (00:48:11)
Absolutely. Well, we're we're grateful for that. We're gonna take another quick break and we'll talk a little bit more about your passion for English teaching.

INSTRUMENTAL BREAK

Euan (00:48:22)
It seems like a big question. Maybe it's impossible to answer, I don't know, but I did feel it was worth asking.
It's clear from both your career and your academic life, that your passion for English is inexhaustible. You know, you've done so many different qualifications. You speak with such passion about a variety of different elements of English. What do you love most about the English language, or about about teaching the English language? From both your own perspective as a teacher and kind of a learner's perspective.

Frank (00:48:48)
You're right, it's a very difficult question to answer. I would have to say, but I think in my case teaching has - I know it sounds repetitive - but it has taught me a lot of things in life.
Because in a way you can think of a a teacher as a leader. For example, in the beginning, before starting for example doing my own teacher training workshops or even working as a Team leader for Cambridge exams and training other examiners. I remember that I was terrified because I    didn't know exactly if I was ready for such a challenge.

Frank (00:49:27)
When you think about it, I mean teaching is basically handling human resources. Basically you you learn how to deal with humans and and you know your students. They come to class. There's something about giving feedback and understanding the needs. I mean, when you do your needs analysis and you talk to your students and ask them like for example:
“What do you need? Or why do you want to learn English and those things you normally do at the beginning?” Then, you realise that you know leading a team is not really very different. Leading a team and actually leading other people. I mean like showing I’m setting the example. You know, when you plan your class, I mean you, whatever methodology you would like to use in the classroom, if it's, you know, PPP or TT, you know the typical UM acronyms that we use in TEFL courses when you train as a teacher, I mean it's pretty much what we do in life. I mean it's it's just a natural way of communicating with other people. It's it's funny because teaching has changed me in many ways, and when I talk to my friends back in the States, I mean they usually say “Frank, get out of character, please. You're not teaching anything to me. But it's crazy because in a way, I mean us teachers, we have like this…

We cannot switch off, you know, being a teacher, like making sure that people understand. I think that great communicators are also great teachers in a way. So, I would say that getting from teaching, from what I do, my craft is basically everything. Everything I am today, is because of communicating with other people. I mean, learning how to articulate your words and making sure that what you say is trustworthy.

Or, you know, that people can verify what you say. And sometimes I know that sometimes you, my kids for example, I used to come up with stuff at the beginning of my career but then again, I mean, by pursuing this it has taught me a lot along the way, so I would say that I wouldn't be the person I am today if it hadn't been because, you know, I became a teacher so many years ago.

Euan (00:51:47)
I love that answer so much. And what's next for you? Is there another aspect of the English language that you're looking to study? Because I do worry at this point if we included your name with titles, it might not fit on the screen. So is there anything, any qualification that you're wanting at this point or are you kind of studied out for the meantime?

Frank (00:52:05)
I would say that I think I will see myself as a language learner at heart, I mean, of course, language teachers are usually, you know, known as language experts. And I kind of hate that term. I mean I would not consider myself a language expert. I mean I'm I'm I'm I'm more of a language geek, language lover.

Frank (00:52:31)
I mean, in terms of English and Spanish, which are both my languages, you know the languages I grew up speaking, but also other languages. I mean, I became interested in Russian a few years ago, and still, I'm struggling of course. But it's a process. I'm learning and I'm trying to continue with my Russian. My friends, you know, (they say) “who speaks Russian?” They say “why Russian?”. But you know why not?
And other languages as well. I mean, I like learning about the differences, the nuances and… yeah, I mean, I would say that “language learner at heart” would probably define me. It sounds a little romantic, but yeah.

Euan (00:53:12)
So just to kind of wrap things up, again, it's a big question. It's a big philosophical question, maybe not that I'm comparing myself to any sort of great philosopher, but you know, you're someone who's in many people's eyes, at least, you’re a teacher who's done it all. You've studied extensively, you've taught abroad. You've taught online. You've done a podcast, a very successful podcast for three seasons. You've got a really good following on TikTok, you know, in terms of… I think by a lot of people’s standards, you're a fantastic example and it would include my own standards, you’re a fantastic example.
So what piece of advice would you give to someone who's at the start of their career? Your path is something to aspire to. What one piece of advice would you give them?

Frank (00:53:54)
I will probably tell them to call me.

Euan (00:53:56)
Yeah.

Frank (00:53:58)
Or send me a message. I mean, I'm always open to receiving, you know, emails or messages from people that want to (get in touch). I have a friend in India, we've become really close online, of course, because because he lives in India and he approached me. He asked some questions and I gave him the best answers I could give him and yeah, I mean… it's anybody (that) can contact me. I mean you just have to search my name online and you will find a gazillion ways of contacting me through my podcast e-mail or my socials, Instagram or TikTok, and you you will always find me.
So contact me and write to me. I mean, if you want to become my friend and get a a few pieces of advice on how to do this, I will try to answer to the best of my abilities. I mean, of course I can only speak from my own perspective. You know the way I did it that worked for me and you know that can maybe, you know, help you find a way.

Euan (00:55:02)
Well, Frank, it's been an absolute pleasure speaking to you. It really, really has. Thank you so much for coming on to the podcast. And uh, just a sort of final note, you kind of made reference to it there, but where is the kind of main place people could find you?

Frank (00:55:14)
Well, my TikTok account is basically the same as the podcast, it's WYSE. It's actually added on purpose because it's What You Say in English, but it sounds like “wise”. WYSEpodcast. That's the the handler. You know the name in in both Instagram and TikTok. It's @WYSEPodcast and my e-mail is podcast at language teaching dot ES.

Euan (00:55:46)
Brilliant. Well, thank thank you and yeah, hopefully we'll get another another opportunity to speak on the podcast at some point. Thank you.

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