Patrick Smith, Celi Reeder

Euan (01:32)
It's with no small amount of pleasure that I'm able to reintroduce Celi Reeder and Patrick Smith back to the podcast. Now, these are two guests that you'll know and love. And just by the listenership figures, I do know that you'd love them to quite a great extent. Celi, Patrick, it's great to have you both back. How are you feeling? (Pretty good. Yeah, I'm happy to be back. Yeah, me too. It's been a while. It's been great. Yeah. Amazing, amazing.) Now, I've brought you back. Like, I've brought both of you back because, as actually surprisingly few emails would attest, you know, you're both in Japan. I am useless with time zones, but we’ve managed to figure it out. We’re all here.

For the few people who actually missed out on your episodes and for that heinous crime, you can go back and listen to them after this. For those who don’t already know, can you tell us a little about yourselves? And, Patrick, I’m going to give the floor to Celi first because you were the most recent. So let’s be fair. Let’s be fair. Sounds good. Celi, can you tell us a little bit about yourself? And then, Patrick, we’ll go to you next.

Celi (02:28)
Yeah. So my name’s Celi. I am from Puerto Rico. I was born and raised there. Moved to the States in high school and then decided I wanted to get a degree in education. Got my degree in elementary ed and left Texas straight to Korea.

I've been teaching abroad for the last three years between South Korea, Thailand, and now I am living in Iwaki City in Fukushima Prefecture in Japan. 27 years old. And, yeah. Just happy to be here. Fantastic.

Euan (03:00) And, Patrick, for the people that didn't listen to your episode, maybe don't know who you are, could you tell us a little bit about yourself?

Patrick (06:00)
Sure. So my name is Patrick Smith. I am a teacher currently living in Tokyo. I live just outside of Tokyo. But I moved to Japan probably about 10 years and a month ago, I think. I think it's been 10 years and a month now. To the city of Sendai. Sendai, which is up north, where I was an English teacher for five years, five and a half years.

Then I moved down to the Tokyo area where I taught English for a few more years, about three more years. And I currently work in an international school as a homeroom teacher. I teach first grade. I grew up in Flint, Michigan, and I taught in China actually before moving to Japan. I taught for three years in Beijing, then I moved to Japan. It's been a long while that I've been living abroad.

Euan (03:54)
Amazing. And you know, right from the start there, I'm going to start using more Americanisms because you've, you know, you both grew up there, but right from the start, you can tell there's a really varied and kind of, you know, there's an exciting opportunity to talk about the different places within Japan that you've been.
Because I think, you know, people get preconceptions about, you know, I don't think people realize how massive Japan is, and that's something that we'll explore a little bit later on. And that's something for people who are listening to the podcast, Celi and Patrick are both nodding at me enthusiastically. So that's always a good sign. So we'll touch on this briefly. What or indeed who inspired you to teach in Japan? And I know that sounds like a, it's both a small and big question, but I guess I don't know another way to ask it. Patrick, we'll go to you first. What was the major driver?

Patrick (04:40)
Hmm. For me, I would say I was, I was interested in Japan for a number of years before, before even moving to China. Yeah. I ended up moving to Beijing first and teaching there while Japan was still sort of in the back of my head for a while. But my older sister, she actually taught in Japan just a few years before I did. So, seeing her there and then being able to visit her while I was in China, we taught at the same time. While I was in China, she was in Japan. Being able to visit her here and see what the country was like, what her school was like, what the kids were like. That was a big sort of remodeling motivator for me, I guess, to make the transition to Japan from China so it was a number of factors, but I would say the biggest thing in the end was being able to visit my sister here seeing her do it first.

Euan (05:37)
Amazing, and so Celi, when we last spoke when we recorded your podcast you were in the process of applying to a particular program to teach in Japan we'll speak more about that in a little while but you were in the process of kind of making that move what was it that inspired you to you or did any one thing kind of inspire you to move to Japan you'd already had that experience like Patrick to an extent of teaching in different countries in Asia what was it about Japan that kind of pulled you in that direction?

Celi (06:05)
Right, so I think when I first started looking for jobs abroad, I just knew that I wanted to leave Texas and I just started looking. I remember just doing searches and Japan was always coming up, so was Korea.

I really wanted to go to Thailand however this was right during the pandemic. So, Thailand wasn't an option anymore; I ended up going to South Korea. I considered Japan before it got crazy and everything because my husband actually was the one that mentioned it; he's always wanted to come to Japan and and was really interested in Japanese culture for me. It's like has to be the first place I wanted to go, but I knew that I had to put it on my list so I told myself I wanted to go to three countries and teach there before I kind of checked it out and I was like okay, I want to settle down, so that's why yeah, he I think my husband kind of sparked that interest in me, and we we knew we wanted to do it eventually just not right at the first country that we were going to head to.

Euan (07:05)
Cool! So Celi, just a follow-up question there, I sort of made reference to the application process before the the jet program you talked about a little in the last episode, and you were in the process of applying for that just as a follow-up, can you tell me a bit about that process because that's something that a lot of our listeners are going to go through or they're going to think about applying for? What was that like for you?

Celi (07:26)
Yeah, so I think the biggest thing is the jet program application; I think it's a really big commitment. Just because the deadline and the timeline of it is so long, like I said, I had Japan in the back of my mind for a really long time, and that kind of played into my plans in other countries and contracts and length of time that I was going to stay there because the application does start around like fall, I think it opens October or November, and then you don't arrive in Japan until that next year August, so it's about a 10-month long process that you're having to be committed kind of like locked in. Like I know I'm going to Japan, um, and kind of work your way around that, so I would say just to keep that in mind if the JET program specifically is the program that you're going to apply to.

Euan (08:16)
Patrick your sister had already been teaching in Japan you'd visited Japan but I want to I want to know before you'd even set foot in Japan, and Celi I'll ask this of you as well, what did you what did you envision Japan being like if that's not too broad a question what did this what kind of dreams did you have of of living in Japan and we'll we'll talk about kind of how your dreams and expectations met eventually but what what did you imagine it would be like if that's not too broad?

Patrick (08:42)
Hm, I think, so, I remember the very first time I visited my sister in Japan I remember being on the plane Uh, flying over, I remember landing and, um, seeing what everything was like, and I was just in such awe; I was like, 'This is the place you know, that I've been dreaming of for so long. I think before coming, I knew Japan was a super, super clean place based on what I knew from my sister, and it was clean I knew it was. The people were kind, but that was pretty much all I knew. I knew was a land of anime, video games, and all that, but coming for the first time in seeing what it was like was um, it just went way beyond my expectation. I was like, 'This is this is the the best place on earth I had that sort of like that fantasy, that fantasy stuck with. me, I would say during that initial visit it didn’t leave; it didn’t start to change until I moved here and like you said we’ll talk about how things shifted, I guess a little bit later but um yeah I thought it was amazing beforehand and even during that first trip which is just like maybe five days it stayed that way I was like I can’t wait to move here.

Euan (10:00)
And Celi just to kind of jump in on that you know as a as a seasoned traveler especially in East Asia it's what did you imagine Japan would be like and how did landing meet your expert your expectations or your hopes?

Celi (10:19)
Yeah I think so for me I hadn’t been to Japan before I moved here, I had taught in South Korea, so I think I knew everything that we see on social media about Japan. I know it's so much, especially right now, so I had this idea that it was clean, the public transportation, but I think I was also comparing it to Korea in a sense because the public transport is similar, you know they really do have a lot of similarities structure wise, uh, so for me, I didn't really know what to expect as of Japan specifically.

I do remember landing in the airport and there was like Mario stuff all over and figures everywhere, and I was like, okay, I'm obviously in Japan. I think that's one thing. That Japan does it like we are video games; we are Nintendo, and we're gonna rock with it, and that's something that you really do like Patrick said, you experience it the moment that you land um and I think that's really it's really nice and really pretty experience to have, and you know you're going to move here before you go through all the processes right and all the the official business stuff. I think it's really fun to just enjoy it at the first few days of just absorbing everything Japanese.

Patrick (11.28)
100% agree.

Euan (11:30)
And just to kind of extend on that a little bit, we kind of we mentioned it a little bit before, but let's talk about Where you were in Japan, we'll talk a little bit more later on about how massive Japan is because again I can't emphasize that enough, um, especially as someone who lives in Scotland which is tiny but like um it really is it's a village everyone knows each other but where, where was it, where you first kind of landed in Japan and you know what would, what were those initial experiences like, um, of the towns or or cities where you first were we talked about expectations as well how far you know where you were first based how far you know or close were those places to the kind of visions that you had in your head about what would it like, go to Patrick first on that one, again.

Patrick (12:16)
I think, uh, Tokyo was pretty much just like okay, this is what I thought Japan was when I moved here, um, and began to like live in Japan. I was up north in Sendai, uh, where I was for the first five and a half years, um, it was it was similarly kind of similarly close to what my expectations were except for the fact that Sendai is a much smaller city than Tokyo, so you know there's less people, there's less big buildings all around, and um, but also the people are more I think they're a bit more shy up north, and um, and that was probably one of the first things that hit me about how wrong some of my expectations Were it's very difficult in Japan to befriend people because, well, I wouldn't say it's hard to befriend people, but it's hard to make friendships that last in Japan.

Because Japanese people are very reserved; they're very um, they keep to themselves, you know. They open up to people they know really well, but if you're a random stranger that they meet, they're not really gonna um, be as open with you. And that's kind of the case with most people just in the world in general. But then you know, you add each other online or you know, exchange Instagrams or something, but you're not really likely to hear from them for months and Months and months, years and years, unless you're really about it, and you should not expect them to be intentional because they're not going to be because that's just how they are. That was something that was hard for me when I moved here because I was coming from China where people are so outgoing there, and I made so many friends within my first year there.

People would approach me and ask if I could practice English with them, and that was how I got to know a lot of people. And so none of that happened here in Japan. No one would approach you to talk to you; no one will um come up to you on a train and and ask if you know where you're from If you can speak English or not, like they wouldn't, in um, that was a huge surprise for me, and something that took me a while to get used to living up north in Sendai. I like Sendai a lot; I miss it a lot, actually. And it was great; it wasn't the same as Tokyo; it wasn't quite the same as all of the expectations of build-up that I had prior to moving here, but it was still a great experience.

Euan (14:51)
And Celi you told me about where you're teaching now and similar to Patrick about the kind of the reception that you got, the kind of community that you were in, in terms of being a language teaching assistant, and the kind of experiences that you had on a similar kind of level did did you have similar kind of experiences or did it help to be within a kind of community of teachers and and have a network kind of that way what were your experiences?

Celi (15:17)
yeah so applying to the jet program I had requested pretty rural placements actually um Miyagi prefecture where is and I is was one of my uh preferences of jet program
is notorious for not placing you in your preferences it's kind of just giving them an idea of landscape and area so I do live in a really big city but what makes it a big city is that they took a ton of villages and then put them all together so it is one of the biggest cities in Japan area wise but it still is um the only part that doesn't look like the countryside is our very small downtown area so coming in to Japan I knew that I had requested you know not Tokyo because one of the things I wanted was to learn Japanese and I expected really good transportation because that's what you know Japan for right but then it arrived and I think that was one of the biggest shocks outside of obviously Patrick already mentioned with people I know it can definitely be really difficult to connect to people but transportation, that's where you rely on to go meet people and to go out into the city. and then I arrived and my last bus from the downtown area was at 6 p. m. at my place two months, I think it was three or four months in, they cut my weekend buses so now I can't get into the downtown area and do things from where I live that's a little bit even 10 minutes away from the downtown area by car but it's so countryside and just elderly people. No buses. I think that was my main thing was how difficult it was to get around when all I wanted to do was explore this new city that I was living in.

And yeah, just seeing the vast difference between being in a big city in Japan and having that comfort of the transportation to being here. It's been pretty crazy. And also, there's like no English, which is a great challenge, right, to learn Japanese. But people, I think, with the shyness and then also the level of low English that we have in this prefecture, in the city specifically, makes it a tiny bit harder to just kind of like find your place. I did just start leasing a car though. It's like Iwaki City unlocked. It's been amazing. I recommend if you are in a rural placement to lease a car. It is really, really affordable.

Patrick (17:45)
Can I piggyback off of what Celi was saying?

Euan (17:49)
Of course, yeah.

Patrick (17:51)
I have a lot of respect for teachers who, when they first moved to Japan, or not just teachers, just anyone moving to Japan, when they go to the countryside areas, to hear that, Celi, you chose specifically not Tokyo because you wanted a more kind of authentic Japan experience that would enable you to learn the language, that's really great. And that's something I would actually recommend for people who are coming to Japan. Sendai is kind of Inaka, like countryside, but it's also got a pretty big like downtown area. And the place that I was located in within Sendai was not really countryside. So it didn't feel like countryside to me. It was fine. But I do wish that I had a more like authentically countryside experience.

Because not only do you get the opportunities to learn the language better, because you're forced to speak it with locals. But also, I think I may not be able to speak it with other people. I don't know. I don't I mentioned before that Japanese people tend to be more closed off. But I do feel like in countryside areas, they're way more open to chatting with you as a foreigner, because oftentimes you are the only foreigner in that area or one of the only ones. And so they remember you, they will talk to you when they see you out and about, and actually makes it just makes the experience a whole lot different than it is if you move into a bigger city like Tokyo or Osaka from the beginning.

And so I have a lot of respect for people who choose that. And I think great decision, so kudos to you, Celi.

Celi (19:25)
Thanks so much! It was difficult at first, but it's gotten yeah, it's night and day different once you get used to it. It's been really nice and awesome.

Euan (19:34)
I'm gonna quickly bask in the glow of the harmoniousness of my guests, and we're gonna take a quick break and we're gonna come right back with some more questions about Japan.

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Euan (20:22)
And I'm back with Celi and Patrick, so I'm gonna ask this in a direct way because it's what our listeners want to know. How about finding work in Japan? Because Celi, you talked about the JET program, and Patrick kind of went things differently. Did you apply directly to the schools that you ended up working in, and can you tell us a little bit about that process?

Patrick (20:41)
Yes, so the school I taught at in Sendai, I was a direct hire to the school. Um, the application process was very simple, and because it was the same school that my sister was working at, it was a really smooth transition. I knew a few of the higher-ups in the school, and so it was really Simple, really smooth, and so actually a lot of people ask me since they, you know, see my content, they assume I'm a jet teacher or an alt of some sort, but um, I always have to tell them like I've never actually been a part of any of those kinds of programs. I was a direct hire which does make your as an English teacher a bit different, but yeah it was it was great the jobs I had after the school in Sendai, those ones were actually found those jobs through Gaijin Pot which is a resource that I've mentioned to so many people so many times, but it's a great you know just list of tons of jobs that are available for foreigners in Japan and I was able to yeah i found my my last school through through gaijin pot and applied through there my current school was a it's an international school i was a direct hire to the school also but it's a totally different you know category being an international school versus you know a job where you're teaching english so yeah i was i was not an ALT was not a part of a dispatch company of any sort when i first moved here

Euan (22:13)
as for as for Celi you you have been to the jet program and we talked about that a little bit earlier and how would you say that's contrasted against your previous teaching experiences in other countries what's that transition Been like? and and how have you, how you found it?

Celi (22:27)
Right, So, in South Korea, my first time ever teaching abroad, kind of applied directly. I used a recruiter and they paired us up with the school; did the interview everything with one school. It was pretty seamless, straightforward process. Thailand, I actually used I think it was Dave's SL Cafe for finding jobs and some interviews; um, but yeah, I did so in that one, I didn't have a recruiter or anything; it was just me setting up the interviews with some emails. I actually did that at the airport on my way to Chang Mai. So possible as well in Japan though, I went the most official route you could have taken um as in terms of alt jobs, uh, the Jet program's a government program, so it makes the process pretty straightforward with application process but also a lot of documents. But getting set up, I have this phrase and it's like every situation is different and it oh my gosh it really is, but you know it's kind of yeah everyone falls on that, but yeah it really is, it just really really depends on whether you're a high school alt or who your supervisor is or who your board of education is, it's completely different. So with the Jet program, you fill out the application, you arrive at Tokyo orientation, then you are kind of like sent off, like little ants, to all the different prefectures.

Then you meet your contracting organization, which can be your school or it can be the Board of Education for the city. And whether they help you take you to the bank, I know for me my supervisor went with me. But then didn't go with me to set up my debit card and I had to do that by myself. But then it completely zeroed like very little Japanese that I had at that point. Then there's some people who are taken to the bank for every single appointment, someone goes with them. And there are some people that don't receive any help at all, so that's one thing. The jet program is that it really just depends, which is why yeah I just recommend knowing ahead of time and just being ready for really, really good or very challenging.

Euan (24:36)
That was a very diplomatic way of putting it, that was yeah every experience is different, yeah. Um, but I mean it is a it is a successful route for for a lot of teachers and people do find also it's a different job, which is kind of the next thing I want to ask, and you kind of touched on this a little bit, but I think it's a it's a it's a it's a one there Patrick that you've been inside of two different kinds of frontiers of teaching Celi, you've had different teaching Experiences in terms of Japan, there are different kinds of schools or different kinds of jobs. What kind of things have you encountered and and have you spoken to people from from other kinds of schools and whatever kind of you know different types of teaching jobs and and what kind of have you heard from within the sort of Japanese teaching scene, If you like? I'll go to Patrick, you've been there a bit, a bit longer, so I'll refer to you on this one and then we'll come to you afterwards, Celi.

Patrick (25:20)
So yeah, that's a good question. Most of the teachers that I've met, English teachers in Japan, um, I think they mostly seem to enjoy their jobs. There are a number of them though who express some sort of dissatisfaction, frustration, um, or just like when I ask them how their year has been if they've been like a year in Japan or if they've been here for two years, how's your two years been? They often will say like it's, it's, it's all kind of like a different kind of thing, right you know.

I'm still kind of adjusting to things, you know even two years down the line, sometimes it takes a while for people to adjust, which is a whole different conversation just adjustment to a new country not just related to like your your job but just life, but um in terms of their job they they do. Uh, they do mention that things they don't go into details but they often will say like, 'you know my my school is,' they did this thing last week and they case about this or that, but then there are a lot of people who say it's the best job in the world, like it's so it's easy, it's um, I have great students, I love the area I live in, you know, a whole range of things.

And so, I mean, I hate to have to fall back on that phrase again, but it's really true, like what Celi was saying, like every situation is different, it really just depends on location, depends on the the company you're with, the school you're with, it depends on you know if you have. A community around you that's something that I really think is important for anybody moving to a new country.

Celi (26:51)
It's just cringe, it makes us cringe to say it so I won't say it again, but it's because we hear it so often, because it just really… I do think it all comes down to the expectations that you have beforehand. Um, I think that will really really play a role in the Japan experience as a whole.

Japan is not an easy country to adjust to and I think that's what I can just wish that people would understand, is that it all comes down to what you want to make of the experience because it's a difficult country with you know, a difficult culture. To adjust, like Patrick said, with meeting people and um, you know, as an alt for example. We are in that we are in that job in high school by myself right so I am the only foreigner in my school and that can be tough for some people. It certainly was for me. I'm a super outgoing person, I'm super social, and there are some days at my school that I say zero words because that is just, you know, the teachers are busy or maybe you know they're not as comfortable speaking English, just a wild range of things right.

But just understanding that it really comes down to what you want to make out of the experience and really thinking of why are you in Japan. Because they're going to be like Patrick said, so many people that complain, and and there are things to me that have been difficult to accept about Japanese work culture for example right, and that's something I had a really tough tough time with, and I think you just have to hit that line where and it sounds kind of bad right but it's something that you can't change in the position that you are usually you know even Japanese workers don't have a lot of the resources to make that change especially in government schools and they're not allowed to like you know protest or do any type of sort of action like that and just you have To hit that line where, what are you going to do with those feelings?

Are you going to try to be that positive light and just kind of like gut-bumping everyone, and keep the positivity or are you going to kind of like let that bring you down and focus it's it's just about what you focus on, just kind of accepting and that you are just you know why are you here? Are you here to stay? Are you here for a few years and just just make the best, the best out of it that you can because like you said Japan is huge and there's so much to see and yeah so many people to get to know.

Euan (29:18)
There's just something I quickly want to jump on, you made a point about um about state education and about kind of the working culture i'm not gonna you know i'm not gonna attribute too much a needle away there because i you know i don't want to be life difficult for you but there was something i was gonna i want to ask anyway um patrick you've worked at state and and international school level Celi you're working within the state school infrastructure if i'm right i'd be interested in what kind of school that your husband's working in but you've both got experience you know not just in not just in japan necessarily but the differences between types of schools you know schools That are around as businesses, schools that are government-run international schools that kind of thing within Japan.

I'm just wondering, what the sort of distinct cultural differences are and what the students how do students differ between you know your international schools and your state schools? And what the kind of as I say, the kind of cultural sort of broad stroke differences are there major kind of distinct differences between these kind institutions? Just as a kind of guide for our listeners um what are they kind of more commonly referred to as? You get in South Korea, for example, There are hagwons, these kinds of schools. What are the different schools in Japan and how are they different? I'll let everybody jump in on that one.

Patrick (30:31)
I can speak a little bit to it. So, the kinds of schools that I taught at my first two jobs, actually, yeah, the first two jobs were, they were primarily kindergartens.
So those are called yochien. And, and they kind of also, I wouldn't say doubled as but they, they also offered like hoikun services. So like, kind of like a more daycare, sort of service for families. And so those, yeah, those experiences. I was not a kindergarten teacher at my first school because it's a lot, but the school was primarily a kindergarten. I taught in the afterschool program. So I would take students who came from the kindergarten, who'd graduate from the kindergarten and teach them after the school day ended. So they'd graduate from the, from the kindergarten, they'd go off to their different elementary schools, and they come to, to my afterschool classes for English instruction. And so I would say those kinds of students function a lot differently than I think students who you might teach.

In a elementary school or in a middle school or high school function. The students who came to my after-school program, those ones were ones that either chose to continue learning English or they, you know, sometimes their parents just wanted them to continue learning English. It was kind of like, what's it called, like a juku, which is like a cram school, but we try to make it very enjoyable, fun environment for the kids. So they would, you know, continue coming. But often, yeah, the kids wanted to be there. So it made their experience a lot different, I think. And they, their approaches to learning were a lot different than what I've heard from a lot of people who've taught in elementary, middle school and high schools.

And at that school, I taught from like, four-year-olds all the way up to high schoolers. I taught the whole range. And they do get a lot quieter as they get older, like Celi was saying earlier. But it was nice to, to know that they were still choosing to come to my afterschool program. So even though they were quiet and so reserved, would, you know, put in the time for English practice, like they would actually, you know, contribute to class and answer questions and whatnot. Sometimes you had to pull teeth, but it was good. It was still, still fine. And then, sorry, I'm taking up so much time. But contrast with that to my, my current school, my international school, it's more like a typical school setting.

And so, you know, they're there because they have to go to school with students. However, now that I'm teaching first grade only, you know, you have, I've taught and talked a lot about my years or my experiences teaching young kids and how just, you know, they're so excited about life and they have lots of questions and they are lots of fun and they're crazy, all this stuff. And that's very much still the case with my current class. So even though it's like, it's a school school. And so you don't have that, that factor of like, okay, they're choosing to be here. They, they want to continue learning this, that, or the other. Like we, it's not like a, we have to make it a fun environment for the kids sort of thing.

You still have that energy, I think, that comes from the kids. They still have that sense of like, oh, this is a fun place. And I do still try to make sure that my class is a fun environment for the kids. So, yeah, it's, that's what my experience has been teaching kids in those different types of school structures. But yeah, it's been good. All kinds of experiences.

Euan (34:12)
And Celi, talk to me about the experience of your school and the type of school it is.

Celi (34:17)
So, I wanted to mention that high school in Japan is not mandatory. And I think that plays a really big role in what the environment of your school is going to be. So, in my school, my base school, because I go to different visit schools throughout Creeks, but my base school is a college prep high school.

So, it's an academic high school, is what we call them within the city. So, what this means is that the students are coming to school. They pay for school, which I think is really important to mention. It's not free. So, they're coming to school specifically to get prep, to go to certain universities around Japan. Whether that's in Iwaki, whether that's in Tokyo or in Sendai, they're coming here because they already know that they are going straight to university to study for their future jobs. And English is, it is a really big part of university exams in Japan, which in that case, you would think, whoa, then, you know, English education should be like top, top, top and important.

But the way that we teach it in high school and me as an ALT, I am there to really just offer like conversation practice and teach them about culture, holidays, but also just conversation opportunities. But their normal English classes are all memorization. It is all straight from the university. It is all straight from the university textbooks and the university, sorry, university exam. So it is from their textbooks and exams, and they're just required to just memorize exactly what they need for the exams. There's not really an understanding of any grammar or any conversation patterns. And that's just, I'm speaking about Iwaki. I'm sure maybe Tokyo education in high school might be different because you can see it in the levels of English.

But in a countryside school, it is specifically taught what is needed for, for the English exam. As far as students' Personalities though, and their, you know, the atmosphere in the classroom, they are certainly super shy. I go to some visit schools that are not academic schools. They're actually just very, very rural schools. And the students are super genki. They're super energetic. But my base school, because it's academic, I think the students have this like extra pressure to just be perfect and not make mistakes because they know they're in competition with everybody else in that classroom. And I think that puts a certain pressure on that. That allows you to not, you know, be your normal self and raise a hand.

However, what I think is really funny though, is that whenever I tell my classes and I remind them, like Hey guys, I'm a teacher from the States. I am not a Japanese teacher. In American classrooms, in Canadian classrooms, in Australian classrooms, students always speak. Students always raise their hand and you can see them like, okay. So then at that class, when it's time to share at the end and I'm like, please raise your hand. I at least get out of a class of 40. I at least get like five to seven students, which is a lot for them to raise their hand. So, you know, I think it's just that they are so entranced and they're so focused on keeping, you know, what they believe that the classroom atmosphere should be that sometimes they just need a little reminder that in other places, it's not like this and that it is okay to just like raise your hand and speak.

And yeah. And it just sometimes takes just a reminder to get them to kind of like open up a bit.

Euan (37:40)
We're going to take another quick break and I'll be right back with Celi and Patrick.

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Euan (38:21)
I'm back with Celi and Patrick. Now, Japan, obviously, massive, massive destination, not just for tourists, but obviously for people who want to teach and live there now. I've written, you might have missed it. I don't know. It was, it was, it was everywhere. It was a very popular blog post. And by very popular, I mean, sort of relatively popular by my own personal work standards. But it was about etiquette in Japan. It's about five things that new teachers should know about. But I want to ask people who are actually living and working there. Is there anything that, broadly speaking, newcomers to Japan might not have accounted for? And I mean that in terms of culture, in terms of etiquette, are there, are there any things that you've picked up along the way that you didn't realize beforehand that are actually essential to living in Japan? To living in Japan, I want to go to Celi on this because she's a bit newer to Japan. And then Patrick, you can, you can help us out.

Celi (39:11)
Before I was coming to Japan. I do remember I was watching reels on Instagram and there were so many videos about things not to do in Japan. I don't know if it's been the same for you, Patrick, right? It's so saturated. It's like, do not do this when you come to Japan or the Japanese people will look at you, you know, all of this really. Pressure heavy thing. And it turns out, you know, that was one of the fun things we got to ask our students at the beginning. Like, is this true? What do you think of this?

And in Iwaki, drinking and eating at the same time or while walking is actually allowed. And this is something the students are actually really proud about. They're like, 'but in Iwaki, you are allowed to walk and drink, and you are allowed to walk and eat.' I don't know the reason why Iwaki is just outside of this bubble. Because I'm. I know a lot of people talk about it in Tokyo, which blows my mind because in Tokyo, there's so many tourists and there's so many things to eat from stalls, which I find it crazy that in Tokyo, it's like being so crowded. You can just stand on the side of the street. Yeah, that's just one of those things that there's so many things.

You just find out the moment you arrive that are just things that people may be visited as a tourist and so once or maybe one Japanese person told them one thing about this one very specific manner that they were doing and they thought, oh my gosh, I'm going to make a video about this one thing and and now everybody thinks that's the thing. And I think Japanese society as a whole is becoming a lot more lax about a lot of things. Not just say don't follow etiquette, you know, like there's so many etiquettes to follow in and while drinking and eating and things like that. I think that's very important but something like walking and drinking. I think that's becoming a little bit more lax. Maybe it's because my city is at the beach.

It's on the it's on the coast and we're beach city, that could be it. But yeah, that's one thing that really made me realize like Japan is so big not you know, what you see one doesn't necessarily apply to all of it.

Euan (41:14)
And Patrick, you've been in Japan for a decade. So can you follow up on that? Is there any?

Patrick (41:20)
So first of all, I should say I think I'm one of the contributors to that trend of, you know, scaring people away from doing this or that. Because I'm different. I've definitely made at least a video maybe more not a lot. Maybe just like two or definitely one video saying like, 'Oh, you shouldn't do this in Japan.' And I'm pretty sure it was an eating and walking video.

00:41:45
It may have been a series that I was doing a while ago. That was like POV. You're a foreigner in Japan where I would just sell foreigners. But the POV of a foreigner doing different things like going to a music concert, going to the beach, falling down on the street, and like having different Japanese people react to that foreigner. I want to say there was one where I did that, that trend or that one for that series that was about eating and walking. But I don't remember if it was that series or not, but I definitely have made one. I remember making the caption like, 'By the way, don't eat and walk in Japan.' Like, I remember clearly writing that and, and now I don't feel like that's the case anymore.

I've definitely changed. I've changed my tune. I feel like people even in Tokyo are more more open to that. Like you see Japanese people eating and walking-not a ton, but you see it happening. And so I really think it doesn't matter, and people people will always be people who will play the foreign card. Which is where they'll like they'll say, 'I'm foreign.' I can do whatever I want. They know Japanese people aren't going to say anything to them. I really judge them, which they definitely will judge you. They just won't say it out loud. But there are people who play that card, and then there are people who who do it just not knowing any better. And if you do it, you know, innocently like it's not going to affect you negatively.

But I would say, I think something that I've come to recommend to people when they move here in terms of etiquette is just observe. Just look around, see what people are doing, because you can see clearly what is okay and what's not okay. You can like Japanese people are really big on reading the room. Whether it's in conversation or with their actions, like whether you're at a dinner table with friends, like whether you're, you know, going to someone's house, visiting a friend, like you really have to read the room. See what other people are doing, read their expressions, and that will clue you in on how to move throughout that conversation or that event or that experience. But the longer you're here, obviously you pick up more and more and more, and it becomes just like a very easy thing to do.

But when you're first moving here, just observe. Okay. Observe a lot; see what people are doing, even when it comes to buying. I don't know stuff at the grocery store just like watching because it's really not hard to pick up on what is proper etiquette and what's not. But again, Japanese people will be forgiving because they know you're foreign and they know you don't know their customs or they assume you don't know their customs. Which again is not always the case for some foreigners-some do, and just abuse that privilege. But Japanese people are very forgiving. So, don't worry about it too much, but definitely do put some effort into learning the etiquette here, learning what's okay and not okay.

Celi (44:40)
I would say learning etiquette to can benefit you so much with like your coworkers. I think that something that's really important, like something like walking what I was saying like walking and eating or walking and drinking, like that's not really affecting your relationship to people, which is why I'm like I could be more relaxed in some places but etiquettes that really matter. Like, when you're at a company party. Which ALTs go to, I'm sure Patrick goes to a ton being you know an international school teacher so things like that something as simple as like making sure everybody's drink is being poured and you'll see people doing that like I went to my first one and all I had to do was observe and I was just noticing how no one was drinking their drink before they made sure that everybody's drink was okay, and even after you know everybody's already having their drinks, there's just this communal awareness of making sure everybody is okay.

And as a foreigner being able to observe that and just take part of it, even just pouring one tea or one drink goes such a long way, and that's where you really make those impressions like wow they they care. Just small things like that from omiyage to business cards, just there's so many things, but just by observing you can pick up like Patrick said you just pick it up and it makes a huge difference.

Euan (46:00)
I love that, and that's there's so much just generally good advice there. I think anyone where you're planning will be listening to this podcast for enjoyment, maybe you don't, you don't have any plans to go to Japan at all but you're listening to this out of enjoyment, that's really good advice for life.

I think you should go and observe people and you should go and you should consider your relationships with people around you and you should go anywhere you go try and make it a bit better than you know when you arrive and try and make life better for the people around you. So, first thing that comes to mind: what's an unexpected perk to Japanese living that our listeners need to know about?

Patrick (46:33)
Hm, perks, there's there's a lot of perks I mean the cleanliness is kind of unmatched it's such a clean country the customer service is really really great the toilet seats I can't reommend those enough. (Do they do they talk and sing and stuff) some do yeah sometimes you'll have them care seats in like like malls and stuff where they'll have a button where you can push to play music or like birds chirping or talk about yeah all about privacy Japan's big on privacy they're also heated often which is great in the wintertime because no one likes seats yes no one wants to go to the toilet in the middle of the night in wintertime and sit on a cold toilet seat right so that that's that's wonderful and then the bidet feature is just really convenient, I didn't go back after you you've experienced it

Euan (47:26)
I did ask for an unexpected perk and I got an unexpected perk so I can't complain and I really can't you know 10 out of 10 can you can you top that

Celi (47:36)
I don't think I can top bidets honestly I can't and heated toilets, heated seats, look you you got me there totally can't yeah I would say I mean yeah no you can't beat the bidets. But I would say I mean obviously the transportation is great, but I think I would say, look into flights because Japan is so big a lot of people think Shinkansen, but the Shinkansen is really expensive, especially if you live in Japan or want to go during your trip. Like, all around flights are usually cheaper, way cheaper, yeah, you lose like a couple of hours right just being a little bit early at the airport, but that's one thing I learned really fast: that a flight round-trip to Osaka is cheaper than my Shinkansen down to Osaka, so that's my, that was really, really an unexpected for me, that the Shinkansen was so expensive.

Euan (48:40)
Okay, well no, this is, this good to know, okay, but I said. So, it's gonna end up being named after bidets and it's gonna be a whole thing and uh, well I mean we'll, yeah I mean we'll get amazing, amazing listening figures, but people, people I hope people are pleasantly surprised as I suppose it would be by, by a bidet… um, so moving on as swiftly as I can.

And so there's an interesting debate that's that's that's come up and and and Patrick this is something that you've covered online um, and it's a it's a debate about the sort of the behavior of teachers. Especially kind of newer teachers if I'm right in saying that and it's it's um if I'm right in saying this, the impression I get is that it's a debate that's sort of become a wider discussion within Japan and it's about the behavior of teachers and specifically in the behavior of some of some English teachers Patrick can you sort of describe the situation from your point of view and Celi I'd be really keen to get your take as well as as a newer teacher just from the perspective of of what should good English teachers come over to Japan how should they conduct themselves and and What are the things to watch out for?

Patrick (49:42)
So, there's been a very common uh sort of I guess stereotype that's been attributed to English teachers in Japan for years. It's been that English teachers come to Japan or from Japan and they're not going to teach; and foreigners choose to come to Japan with an English teaching job just to like have fun in Japan; they use it as a ticket to get to Japan and they don't take their job seriously and they just you know party and stuff and don't respect the culture; don't attempt to learn the language all this stuff.

And so, being an English teacher for most of my time in Japan, I heard That from people more so when I moved to Japan, and I was like, 'I don't know how to teach English teachers in Japan.' Tokyo, I didn't really hear it too much in Sendai, but when I moved to Tokyo, um, and met other foreigners in Japan, and you know started to get into social media with my TikToks and everything, I became more aware of that stereotype. And so what was interesting was that well one thing it never really affected me; I never really took that to heart. I never let that deter me from continuing to teach English. I enjoyed my job, I enjoyed the kids I taught, and that was the most important thing for me. And I think that's what's really important to me, my students, so I didn't really care about that. I did eventually make the transition to working as a homeroom teacher in an international school after acquiring my teaching license because that's just something I wanted to do, but it wasn't at all because of the stereotype, the negative stereotype that was going around. However, I did make a video probably half maybe like five months ago, four months ago, that was like a comedy-based skit with a friend about um trying to make friends in Japan 'make friends in Japan' but in the end it turns Out there, the person's actually trying to just get a Japanese wife, it's a whole thing.

But at one part of the skit, the girl who's my friend, she runs away from me after I tell her I'm a teacher, and then when I say, 'Oh, I'm not an English teacher, though she runs back, indicating that she was assuming I was an English teacher and that was a big turnoff. And that generated a whole lot of conversation in the comment section of that video where people were like, 'It did like tons of questions and explanations and all this stuff.' So like, people were really confused about why that was something she would run away from hearing and so I ended. Up having to make a follow-up video a couple days later explaining like, well, so this is this is what's what that's about basically.

And, basically, I basically said what I already explained. There's a stereotype that goes around and there's a stereotype that goes around about teachers and everything, and that you know, I-I enjoy my time as an English teacher, but some people they really don't value I mean, I enjoyed my time as an English teacher because of the job itself; I enjoyed pouring myself into my work and trying to grow the students in their English, and establishing relationships with the kids-that's what I enjoyed, and that's why. I did it for so long, even though it's not something that a lot of people, foreigners in Japan, like. See, as like a a good job with quotation marks, a good job, so I just did that quick explanation.

But even now, I still get comments on that video with people being like, 'Oh man, this is so surprising I was gonna, I was looking into moving to Japan as an English teacher not anymore and I'm like, 'Man, I feel like I did some damage with that.' And so, I try to apply when I can and be like, 'Oh no, you definitely should still if if that's what you want to do. If you want to teach English, like, do it! It's going to be an unforgettable experience; you're going to maybe Have some lows, but you're going to have some amazing highs too. Like it's gonna probably change your life, because that's it tells me-it's reconnecting, but that's fine, because that's how I felt too.

I felt like it was a life-changing experience and I regret none of it. I haven't made a whole YouTube video that kind of breaks down even more my decision to transition from English teaching into um, uh, working in international school as a homeroom teacher, because I just wanted to share that with people, you know. This was a big change for me and this is why I think it's something that's important to address because I think Throughout this discussion with the two of us, it's been a lot of time in that video to explain like English teaching was one of the best some of the best years of my life and I made so many relationships with the students I taught during that time that I wouldn't ever take any of it back even though people have a lot to say about English teachers, like it was it was great.

So, that's sort of where that all what that whole stereotype thing is.

Euan (54:23)
I think it's something that's important to address because I think throughout this discussion but with the two of you, it's been very clear that being an English teacher abroad anywhere should be about exploring a place, but also being enormously respectful of it, having the credentials to teach, the correct attitude and enthusiasm to teach, and making a place better than when you (arrived). Celi, I want to get your take on what Patrick said there, and about the culture of English teaching in Japan, what your experiences have been since you arrived. I kind of wanted to get your take on what Patrick's spoken about there.

Celi (55:03)
so I haven't really gotten bad attitudes maybe because I'm in the countryside, so there's less of us. I think as Patrick said in Tokyo, right? Maybe there's more people and and it's just that much more common. I also think locations attract specific types of people like the foreigners in Seoul, Korea are very different to the foreigners in Busan, South Korea, and I think that's the same with like foreigners in Tokyo versus foreigners like in the countryside. and I'm talking about the people that come to Japan thinking I only want to be in Tokyo, right? The people that are like that is my place, I'm not going anywhere else with a program as big as JET. I think you just get every type of person possible. I mean you get people who have credentials, but at the end of the day, JET program-you know you can get anybody. Which is why I'm gonna sound like I'm trying to sell, but I really am.

I think that's why it's so important that people get credentials and get something like a TEFL certification because that's where you know these courses include so many things that you can tell with people that are sometimes in being ALTs in Japan that they just never learned or they just never got and that's where a lot of issues can stem from whether it's you know their behavior at work or their relationships to their co-workers or just how they present themselves I think just having credentials or having some type of training just sets you up for it just sets you up for success that's my opinion it's just there's every type of teacher out there and there's every type of foreigner and different places attract different people.

Euan (56:50)
yeah that's it yeah I think it is important to bring that up because certainly it's something that you know we've been asked about in the kind of follow-up to podcast episodes we've done and talking about Japan in general because the demand is so huge but I certainly don't think people want to go there and be perceived a certain way especially if other people are - I don't want to say ruining the experience - but you know if if people are going there with the wrong intentions and they're not going there to try and adapt to a culture and they're not trying to they're not going with respectful intentions, then I think as is the case anywhere you know people are going to ask questions and clearly you know if people if people go There in bad faith, you know that's going to that's going to cause reputational damage to any industry, you know.

So I think it's important to note that you know there are people like yourselves who are you know fantastic teachers, there's a wealth of great teaching talent over there who are going good faith and they're going and appreciating the culture and they're appreciating the students and and you know they're making the English teaching infrastructure better. So yeah, it's an important discussion.

Patrick (57:55)
I think there are a lot of teachers here who are so hardworking, they're dedicated to their work, dedicated to their students dedicated to their city they're involved in their students lives with their families like there's so many people who actually do value teaching English here you do have those who don't value it but you have so many who do and so I hope that that's something that people who are considering coming to Japan as an English teacher do also keep in mind they're not going to be just they're not going to move here and they're not going to be able to do it they're not going to be able to do it and just be lumped into this category of this the bad English teacher and see themselves surrounded by people who don't value what they do. They’re going to meet a lot of people who actually do value what they do, and take it to heart. So yeah, I hope people can understand that.

Euan (58:51)
I asked this not knowing what the future will hold for you, for you both. I know it’s going to be really exciting and fruitful for you both, but when you know when you’re in the future when you get an opportunity to look back on your careers and your time teaching in Japan, what do you think you're going to remember most fondly? And we'll go to Celi on that because you’ve not been here as long. But what strikes you most, and what are your kind of fondest memories so far of teaching?

Celi (59:15)
In Japan, my fondest memories will definitely be just exploring so many parts of Japan that I didn't even know existed. Like two weeks ago, I was my friend texted me and she said, 'Hey, there's these god sculptures in this random village; very remote village about an hour away.' And it was nothing that was online; it was nothing that we had to pay tickets for.

There were just these sculptures in front of some temples, and one of them was in front of this random parking lot. I was, we went in there, we went out there, not knowing what to expect. And I remember I was looking at one of them and just thinking, 'Wow, like when I leave Japan, I can't see This anywhere else like this very random sculpture that people take such good care of, it painting it every season um all of the plants that are on it, all the tree branches are different I'm like that is something so special to this small village that yeah is nowhere else in the world only here and I think I'll remember a lot of those moments that I've had um whenever it's time to go.

Euan (60:30)
And Patrick what do you think you'll look most fondly upon at a later date, I suppose?

Patrick (60:36)
I guess I would say there's a few things kind of piggybacking off of what Celi just said with like just the amazing sights that you see in Japan, there's so much nature Here, like, just beautiful nature that you forget exists when you're, you know, in the middle of your week of work but then when you have a chance to travel a bit and see, like, even going to um some of the more touristy places, climbing up the mountain where the the famous red torii gates are lined up. It's really, really well known there's this bunch of red gates that go up this mountain, climbing up to the top of it and looking out at the view of the city that's in um Kyoto, I believe.

(So beautiful!) I remember that I climbed that mountain, I think twice, and both times were just like 'wow', like I live in a country that has beautiful nature. This, it was really just a moment of like 'wow', just profound awe, I felt. I'm gonna miss those kinds of experiences. I'm also gonna really miss well, bidets! Those toilet seats you can't you can't eat those toilet seats. I guess you can buy them though overseas, so I'm gonna really miss or not miss I'm gonna really value um and really can't keep close to my heart all of the relationships that I've built with the people here. I've talked before about my students and how much I really, really value um time with them and building those bonds with them, even just um was it yesterday there's a student who reached out to me, a student I used to Teach years ago, she reached out to me on Instagram and she's like, 'Oh, I think you taught me

I'm happy to be able to have had such an impact on these kids that years later they're able to to sort of relive some of their experience through social media, you know, talking with me and finding out that I, I do in fact remember them and still care for them. Because I do my students are I've always, I've always, I just tell this to them, I tell them every year, and I end up crying every time. But I'm like, 'I love you guys that's that's why I'm here in this country.

Euan (62:50)
Great answers from both of you, there that was that was fantastic. So just to run things off very nicely, you're both very very active in social media, you've both got nice followings, um so I want to ask where can people find you and keep up with your adventures and what's next for for both of you, um Celi we'll go to you first.

Celi (63:10)
so I definitely don't have the following that Patrick does, but I do post a little bit about the Japanese countryside every once in a while um my Instagram is Celi with a c @Celi. Reeder, and that's two e's, um, yeah, what's next for me, uh, yeah, I think next year, around the end of July or August, I think I will be heading out to my next country, hopefully to try and settle down. Um, yeah, it's very conceptual, but a plan I am thinking of, uh, going to Australia and using transferring over my teaching license from the states and trying that out. I really, really miss teaching young kiddos; that's definitely my sweet spot, and yeah, just listening to Patrick and all his stories is just amazing.

Yeah, I just miss it very much, and definitely want to take that next step and and I have some friends in Australia, hopefully start building and settling into that community and hopefully be there for the next few years if it all works out, so yeah, just trying to teach kindergarten again, basically, that's what's for me, hopefully.

Euan (64:29)
amazing! Patrick, where can people find you and what we got coming up?

Patrick (64:32)
Uh, well, first of all, I want to say like thank you for sharing your experiences Celi, like this was really nice to hear, and that's cool that you want to go back to teaching. You said kinder, okay, primary grad young kids are where it's at, it's so much fun teaching them; older kids are really fun too, but yeah, little kids are so much fun to teach.

You can find me on social media at the paper, and then just Patrick without the rick, The Paper Pat, and uh, what's next for me? I will continue teaching at my school; I've been a year. and a half I think almost my second year at my current school so I'll keep teaching probably first grade and yeah living life in Japan I want to travel a bit more I haven't been able to travel in in a few years since covered really I haven't taken any big trips anywhere besides going back to visit my family every Christmas so I would like to travel more in Japan and see more of what's around here but yeah I'll be here in Japan!

Euan (65:35)
Nice one well Patrick when when you are traveling around Japan tag us in some of your photos on Instagram let us know all about it and and Celi well you can if you follow the Teflon on Instagram you can see what Celi and um, and her husband Wiley are up to um, they've both contributed some fantastic uh videos to our social feeds, um, and they've gone down really well all of them, so um, yeah it's. I can't thank you both enough for joining me again on the podcast, it's been so great speaking to you both, um, and yeah, enjoy the rest of your week.