TEFL for good: refugees, asylum seekers and being a positive light

Euan (00:01)
Welcome to another episode of 'I Taught English Abroad.' And one of the running themes of this season is bringing back guests that we've had on before, who have been particularly illuminating, people who have had really unique or really or experiences that really chimed with our audience. And we'll get into this a bit later on, Grace, but a time in the world where there's a lot of, shall we say, political upheaval; at a time when things are quite difficult. I think it was only appropriate to bring you back on to talk about your experiences teaching to refugees and asylum seekers. We'll get on to that in a little bit. But first of all, Grace, how are you doing?

Grace (00:39)
I'm good. Thank you for that introduction. I was excited to be invited back. And yeah, political upheaval we'll get into later.

Euan (00:43)
Yeah. To the very, very least. But Grace, it's, again, an absolute pleasure having you back on. For those, I don't want to use any negative words here. But for the people who haven't listened to your first episode with us, firstly, unforgivable go back and listen to it. But secondly, can you give us a little synopsis of your career to date for anyone who isn't caught up?

Grace (00:59)
Yeah, absolutely. So I originally went to college, I started at Iowa State University. And I wanted to be a Spanish high school teacher. I graduated with a degree in Spanish education and then moved to Spain, which is where I started my journey with ESL. So, teaching English language learners. And then I came back to the United States.

I lived in Minneapolis, Minnesota for about a year and a half. And then I came back to the United States. That's really where my passion increased even further, because I was working a lot with Somali refugees in Minneapolis public schools. And then that's when I decided to get my master's in international education management, as well as TESOL. TESOL is teaching English to speakers of other languages. I think our audience knows that, but just in case there are some people in different fields. And then I moved to Monterey, California, which is where I studied at the Middlebury Institute of International Studies. And I moved to California, which is where I studied those two degrees. And that led me to my current position. I am a bilingual transition navigator.

I work at an education consortium called Advance. And I work with the Spanish-speaking population here in South Lake Tahoe. And then I also teach on the side for my own company, as well as a program called NGEN. And we work directly with immigrants and refugees teaching online for workforce readiness. So I feel like I have come to a perfect blend of all of my background and experiences. And now I'm navigating and teaching. And I'm happy to elaborate if you need me to on any of those positions.

Euan (02:37)
Well, I mean, again, I can't recommend your original episode enough. But specifically, I kind of wanted to give you an opportunity to plug English with Grace a little bit. For our listeners who aren't familiar, can you tell us a little bit about that?

Grace (02:53)
Yeah, thank you. So English with Grace, I started my own company, English with Grace. And I started my own company back in 2021. And this was right after the pandemic. So I've pretty much just taught online for English with Grace. I have students who live in China, as well as the majority are in California right now. But I basically just teach confidence, speaking, anything that my students want to work on. I offer small group to one-on-one, small group, large group, one-on-one, excuse me. And yeah, it feels like my passion project. And I have a podcast, and I get to do all the things that I truly enjoy, as well as have my full-time job. So again, it's another blend of all my interests and experiences.

Euan (03:41)
And without any bias, it's a great podcast.Go and check it out. I would absolutely recommend it. So I gave the game away a little bit at the start. I said that you'd come back to the podcast, because I want to talk a little bit more about your experience teaching English to refugees. And you talked a little bit about the Minnesota, and I'm going to have to stop myself doing the sort of Fargo kind of impersonation when I say Minnesota. But you taught to refugees in the Minnesota public school system. So can you talk to us a little bit more about when that was, what the context was, and maybe why people moved from Somalia at that point? Could you just kind of paint a picture for us, if you can?

Grace (04:18)
Yeah, definitely. So right after I was teaching in Spain, I moved to Minneapolis. That was 2017, 2018. Okay. And that's when I moved to Somalia. And that's when I moved to Somalia. And that's when I moved to Somalia. And that's when I moved to Somalia. And that's when I moved to Somalia. And I was primarily teaching K through eight, because I had a part-time middle school Spanish job. So I was teaching, and then I was asked to cover basically a full-time sub position. And then my students were primarily from Somalia. There were a lot of other countries as well, but I really enjoyed working with newcomers. And some of these people, students, weren't even literate in their native language.

So it was a really eye-opening experience for me to have to figure out how to teach somebody using a lot of images and maybe they've never had a formal education setting. So I really enjoyed learning through basically doing. And then, actually, Minneapolis is a great city. I absolutely love Minneapolis. I'm very progressive and a lot going on there. But specifically for immigrants and refugees, there's a large population of Somali refugees. I think they say that it's the second most populated city outside of the capital of Somalia. So they accept a lot of refugees there and there's a lot of programs and different resources that are trying to help that population.

Euan (05:52)
Honestly, I couldn't have told you. That's fascinating about the numbers of Somali refugees in Minnesota. So you took, I'm doing it again, Minnesota, Minnesota.

I'm not doing an accent, I promise you. So you kind of touched on it there. You're saying, you know, you taught students from kindergarten level up to, did you say eighth grade there? Yes, I was K through eight. Okay. So, I mean, as you say, you're dealing with students who, I mean, their literacy in general isn't there. So, I mean, how do you establish those initial kind of connections? You talked to me a bit about using kind of graphics and stuff like that. I mean, I'm going to ask you to explain it in the most simple terms and like total layman's terms, because there's going to be people listening who have maybe never taught before. And I certainly have never taught before. So how do you establish initial connections with students when you have nothing linguistically in common? How do you do that?

Grace (06:47)
So this was again in 2017 before ChatGPT and artificial intelligence really took off. Now I would recommend that you use those very valuable resources because you can basically translate anything on the spot. And that has been so crucial in helping me build rapport with students who maybe don't speak either Spanish or English, because I do speak Spanish with my Spanish speakers. But when I was working with my Somali students, it was really important just to establish, you know, kind greetings, smiling a lot. If I had the chance to talk to their parents, in Minnesota, again, in Minneapolis specifically, we had parent-teacher conferences that they paid for translators, which was amazing. But to initially build that connection, it just takes a lot of time and patience on both ends, checking in.

Because I was in K through eight, I would do push-in as well as pull-out, which means I would go to the classroom or the student would come into my classroom with like a small group. And so I'm specifically speaking to one fifth grader. She seemed so shy and I was always really worried about her. And so I would go and check in and check with the teacher to see how she was doing. But I think that it's crucial to have simple greetings, learn the greetings in their native languages. Again, we have the internet, so you can look that up. And that shows that you're trying as well as them. And then visuals were crucial, using pictures, having her draw. Or any of my students draw pictures as well, just to kind of start.

And then you point and talk as much as you can about the picture that they drew or that you drew. But I think even though you don't speak the same language, students can tell if you're genuinely curious about them and their lives. And if you're doing research and trying to make sure that you're meeting them on a human level, not just trying to push like, let's get you in the classroom into this education system and meet the needs of the institution. I'm a big advocate for meeting the needs of the learner, not the needs of the school. And I know I might get some pushback on that one because standardized testing is still a big thing. But I want to talk about this at a later question, but talking about Maslow's hierarchy of needs and making sure that their basic needs are also met, I think is the base for being able to build those connections, even though you don't speak the same language.

Euan (09:25)
Euan Yeah. And just to kind of extend on that, I mean, you've talked about how important it is connected on an interpersonal level when you're trying to build up those language skills and that kind of interpersonal connection. How do you sort of know, I mean, what are the signs beyond kind of, I don't know how to quite ask this, you know, how do you recognize when you're building that kind of relationship and that kind of connection with a student?

How do you recognize when they're becoming kind of more familiar with each other? How do you recognize when they're becoming kind of more comfortable? Because we're going to talk about, you know, we're probably going to talk about your trauma and that kind of thing later on. And there's so much more to this than I think people realize. But how do you know when you're sort of making those connections and how rewarding does that feel as a teacher?

Grace (10:09)
Yeah, I think for me, so if you're teaching like I said, kind of smaller group versus large group, my sign with the large group, again, with teaching immigrants, refugees, people who maybe come from traumatized backgrounds, routines are crucial. And I think that's a really important thing to in my opinion.

And so I would always start class the same way with like a warm greeting. And I think I notice it after, you know, a couple of weeks. It's not instant. It takes time. And you don't always reach everybody. And by reach, I mean, like maybe they're not responding in the way that you'd like them to. But when they're able to start, you can tell that they know what the routine is. They're excited to say, 'hi, how are you?' Good morning, good evening, good afternoon, whatever the greeting is that you're working on. And they seem like they're engaged and excited to be there. And I'm careful with saying excited because a lot of times, especially if you teach in the evenings, people are working full-time jobs. They have families.

They might be tired or sometimes I'll have people who need they're falling asleep in the back of my classroom. And that's also OK because they still show up and they're there and they could have gone home and gone to bed, you know. So I'm getting off topic again. No, no, no. Yeah. And when they start to engage and know the routine of the class and are able to kind of lead activities when you go into small group and you can tell that they're there feel more comfortable. And again, this isn't a language thing. You can feel it in the room when people feel more comfortable in the spaces that they're in, which is crucial for language learning, because if you are a language educator, you know that one of the biggest things that you can do is create an environment where students feel comfortable taking risks and making mistakes.

So, that's another part. Yeah, I think that answers your question. Sometimes I go off on a tangent and I forget what I said.

Euan (12:01)
No, absolutely. Absolutely. That answers my question. I think that it points there. There's a really, really important point in there in that. I mean, obviously, a teacher of experience like yourself, you're going to know you're going to be very, very well versed in all the teaching methodologies and all the appropriate kind of theory and all the book learning you can do to become an excellent teacher. It's all it's all valid and it's all worthy. But I think you've picked up something really important there is that the experience you get and the atmosphere that you feel, and a lot of it from all the teachers I've spoken to for this podcast, and all the teachers I've spoken to, not for the podcast, feeling is such an important thing.

It feels like that's underrated. I feel that maybe it doesn't get talked enough. And I think maybe this is the context in which in which, you know, it's important to kind of bring up because, you know.

Grace (12:48)
I also think that initially I felt uncomfortable because it was a culture I'd never taught before. I had a degree in Spanish. So I learned a lot about different Spanish-speaking countries, their culture, Day of the Dead and, you know, not just in Mexico, but in other countries. And so I felt confident about their background as a whole, not on a personal level. I think that it's important to know on a personal level as well what the goals and ambitions are of your students.

But so then when I had students from Somalia, what really helped me was going to a lot of professional development, attending webinars, attending in person. And so I was able to go to conferences and meetings, and the biggest eye opener for me was how to relate and teach your students who practiced Islam, how to accommodate during Ramadan and what Ramadan is. And then once I had that knowledge, it really helped because then they also knew, oh, she has tea out here or they're like incorporating things. Sometimes schools will have events where they have food. And if you don't know that your students are fasting. Like that's important to know. And then they also feel like, oh, I'm part of this and people are accommodating to my needs.

So I haven't taught from every country in the world yet, but I think that's a really big piece that teachers can take on and learn more about where their students are coming from.

Euan (14:12)
That's brilliant advice. And actually, I wrote something about cultural sensitivity in a classroom recently and something I didn't pick up on. You've mentioned there and we'll go to we'll go to a quick break after this. You talked about Ramadan, you talked about fasting. We've never talked about this in the podcast before. And this is about teaching English abroad, about teaching people, about teaching English to people from from different countries. What challenges does that bring when you're teaching students of any age who are fasting? Because obviously that's going to have that's going to have an impact on a student's ability to concentrate on their cognitive function, like all that kind of stuff. What kind of challenges does that bring to the classroom?

Grace (14:49)
Yeah. So I think also you have to remember. One of the things I absolutely love about being an English language teacher is not all of your students might be fasting. It depends, you know, and and that's another thing that I learned a lot about just because they are Muslim or, you know, they celebrate Ramadan doesn't even mean that they are fasting. Not everybody fasts, which we can we can get into this in detail if you want to. But I think that the awareness piece was just is the most important, because then when you see a student is.

00:15:23
Is really tired or they're having trouble focusing, maybe have another activity lined up that they can do that's maybe a little bit less. I don't know if the word is intense or, you know, riggering like the rigor of the activity that you're doing. But, yeah, I don't know if I have the best answer for that one, except be, you know, empathetic and understanding and don't don't be too hard on on these students who are doing a very. It's a difficult thing to fast. So and also very important. And it's something that they look forward to and really enjoy. So I think that I just always tried to make sure that I had, you know, water. I believe tea is acceptable and just kind of checking in again.

Now, you can use chat to kind of communicate if you need to in their native language. But anything that you can do to prepare them upfront and let students know, yes, I'm aware of this and maybe class will be run a little bit different during this time.

Euan (16:19)
And again, it points to it points to something really, really important, which is, you know, no matter who your class is, no matter who your students are, you know, cultural awareness for, you know, whoever makes up the demographics of your class is important. And having that knowledge and, you know, the personal touches, they mean the world, not just from an educational point of view. Obviously, a student is going to perform better. But, you know, from a personal point of view, it's going to make the teaching experience much better.

We're going to go to a quick break. And then Grace is going to join me for some more discussion about teaching refugees and asylum seekers.

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Euan (17:36)
And I'm back with Grace Davis. So, Grace, there's no… I wish there was a nicer way to put this, but just to reflect the reality of the situation, refugees-they don't become refugees by choice. And, you know, we could talk about any number of awful tsunamis that are happening in the world at any given time. But in essence, you know, you're dealing with traumatized people as a teacher. What kind of challenge does that bring?

Grace (18:00)
Yes, I so I'm glad that you brought this question up because I think that if you can incorporate trauma-informed approaches into your classroom, you're not just going to help your refugees. You'll help every single student in that class. So the more that you can do to become a trauma-informed teacher, the better.

But yes, many students. Unfortunately, have experienced significant trauma when I'm able to speak in my students' native language. That is something that I have found really difficult just because depending on when I hear about the trauma or what they're going through, you as the teacher have to make sure that you're able to move on in a calm and predictable environment. So I always just come with the assumption that you don't know what trauma they've experienced and you might not ever know. So I think that it's important, like I said, to create routines. And then I say calm and predictable as much as possible. And then providing choices that empower learners and be mindful of triggers. Now, I say that trigger is like a big word right now.

Everybody's saying triggers, but that depends on your students and what might be triggering to them. And you won't know every trigger. And maybe you do something that is triggering to students and you don't even realize it. But if you have that awareness, then you can kind of move on during class. I'm not speaking from an example here that something has happened or a big disruption in class or anything. But just knowing where your students are coming from and their background, and stuff, I think just really helps with that. But I know you said what challenges does that create? And I'm not sure if I'm really I'm kind of answering how I cope with the challenges. But, yeah, I think I think for teachers, what I want to say is it might add it might feel like it adds a little more work and stress.

But in my mind, it's just another opportunity for you to grow as a teacher, because, like I said, this isn't going to this helps across the board in your life. I think if you are aware and trauma-informed, and how to to move forward in a classroom will just help you.

Euan (20:18)
There's two things I kind of want to take from there. First of all, no, perfectly excellent answer. Thank you. I think the first thing that I think we need to use the word trigger here, because, I mean, I'm not going to… I'm going to take a bit of being the brother of a psychologist privilege here. Like we're talking about trauma and the trigger comes, you know, that is absolutely correct context. So I know people get funny about about and for good reason.

They get funny about the word about the word trigger. But I think that's especially relevant here. And second of all, I just want to ask you. Obviously, there's a teacher's perspective. And, you know, people who, like yourself, who are teachers who put so much of yourself into the profession, it's symbiotic with your personality. People who teach a little, you do very much. That's the kind of identity you have as a person. Teaching is a very, very big part of your identity. I say to the classroom, how I mean, it can't be easy. It can't be easy emotionally to hear the kind of stories or to. No, even to hear the stories, but to get a sense of what someone's been through. And I'm not talking about like being an empath or whatever, but it must be emotionally difficult.

So I'm not saying everyone will have the same way to deal with this. But how do you how do you personally kind of deal with the kind of emotional taxation of what is a very, very difficult kind of teaching? If that's not too personal question to ask.

Grace (21:50)
No, I'm glad that you asked it. Also, I'm jealous of the psychologist's brother. That's a fun one to lean on. It's cool. Yeah, definitely. So for me, we talk about this a lot at my job as a transition navigator. A lot of times you will take on and hear stories that you don't even realize until after the meeting that it happened. And all of a sudden you have no energy left. And so I think I keep bringing up self-awareness awareness. But I think for me.

When I pay attention to how I'm feeling after a meeting and think to myself, OK, do I have the emotional bandwidth to have my another meeting tomorrow or how much time do I need to schedule between meetings? I'm speaking as a navigator now because that's my full-time job. But even as a teacher, you know, teachers learn these things just through passing or in small groups; I also really think it's important to meet with your students one on one as much as possible. But even as a teacher, you know, teachers learn these things just through passing or in small groups or I'm I also really think it's important to meet with your students one on one as much as possible. I am a huge advocate for therapy.

I am lucky enough to have an awesome therapist who I can talk to on a regular basis just to make sure that I'm taking care of myself because not to be a cliché here, but I say a lot of clichés. You know, you have to put you you have to put your oxygen mask on before you can help others. And so if I burn out, which teachers burn out all the time because we just keep pushing through and there's not a lot of support and resources. And so I think just making sure that you're doing things and that can be what self-help books and stuff like that. It depends on what it is for you. But for me, I know it's less screen time, less, especially today. I can't take, I can't take in the news every morning. I can't read headlines every morning. I have to limit, limit those when I'm, when I'm taking in that kind of information. But yeah. And then just making sure that you have support systems. In place to help you as well.

Euan (23:54)
That's a great answer. Something else I'm wondering about refugees and asylum seekers who come into that classroom experience for the first time. And like anyone who moves anywhere, regardless of the context, culture shock is going to be a part of it. So just to kind of. You know, it's a different kind of question, I realize, but as a teacher, obviously, we talked about cultural awareness. We talked about learning as much as you can about your students' kinds of cultures.

It's maybe a little bit trite to ask this, but is there is there ever kind of an opportunity for more sort of kind of fun lessons about maybe about like American culture and a kind of pop culture and the kind of the, you know, like sort of adapting to a new culture? How much does it firstly, I mean, I'm saying the word culture a lot. How much does it take for a teacher or a navigator have to kind of help with cultural shock? And secondly, what can you do to sort of mitigate the kind of the negative impacts of culture shock and sort of make it kind of, okay, you know, this situation is obviously it's awful for you, but there are things here that you can enjoy and there are things here like this is a safe environment for you and, you know, we can make this fun for you. If that's not too trite a question and I apologize if it is, but what's your kind of take on that?

Grace (25:12)
Yeah, great. I actually, through English with Grace, have taught a lot of lessons on culture shock. What it means, cultural norms, social norms. And I think integrating that into lessons. I mean, you can integrate that into most lessons, but focusing on teaching lessons that can integrate like local customs, social norms, like I said, everyday interactions is a great one. This also helps when you have the chance to talk about it. I know this is difficult, more difficult at the beginner level. But especially intermediate and advanced levels. I think it reduces those feelings of isolation because they can talk about their culture and they can talk about 'this is what I miss from my home culture.' And then maybe in the classroom you can incorporate that.

I know food is such a big one for people being able to, you know, bring in kind of like a potluck and you try all these different dishes from all around the world. But making sure that you're not just sharing your cultural practices like this is what we do in the United States. Because that. I don't even know what that means. There's so many different cultures where I don't know if you want to call us the mixing pot or the melting pot. But I would like to think we're more of a mixing pot where everybody's bringing kind of a different flavour and culture to the United States. Letting them share their cultural practices that are important to them. And then fostering a mutual exchange rather than saying you're in the United States now. This is how things are done.

Of course. Now, I do know and we go through this. I'm making this like balance motion. If you're not watching the video of this, but it's like a balance of especially with social norms. We talk a lot about workplace norms. How much of that am I also trying to deconstruct and break down because it's what I was taught, but it might not be something I want to continue to carry into my classrooms. And then, how much is it that's going to help my students in future classrooms because they're not always going to have a teacher like me and they might not always be in an English class. And then, how much is it that's going to help my students in future classrooms because they're not always going to have a teacher like me and they might not always be in an English class, learning from somebody who is culturally aware

And I would like to think that more and more people are becoming culturally competent and accepting. But, like you said, it's a tender time, I think, in the U. S. and people are scared. And now I'm going off. I'm changing the topic. But back to cultural talk and how you can teach it in your classroom. I think for me, the most important is mutual exchange and just coming up with different activities to allow students to talk about their life and themselves.

Euan (27:48)
We did touch on this little bit earlier, but just kind of just to extend this idea a little bit, you talked about what you're able to do as a teacher, as a navigator and as a person.

When you're working with more at-risk, vulnerable groups in general, do you feel more of an innate kind of responsibility for your learners? What's the kind of line of like, there's only so much you can do? Feeling like, I know being a cultural navigator is a little bit, a little different. What's that kind of experience like? Like, because I don't think many people, many professions are going to understand that particular feeling.

Grace (28:21)
Yeah, definitely emotionally challenging, like we talked about. Also emotionally rewarding, though. So I don't want to seem like this is just such a heavy burden to take on as a teacher, because I think it's one of the most rewarding experiences. And I absolutely love what I'm doing for my job.

But yeah, when you then realize that it feels like it's your responsibility or you have a strong sense of responsibility for yourself. Or your students' well-being, that's when it can get difficult. But I think as educators, we need to remember that our role is to empower our students with language skills and resources. And our job is to guide them. But you have to recognize your boundaries. Another thing that one of my friends just said the other day that I absolutely love. This was specifically talking about Latino students, but that they don't need saving. And I think that that's also important to remember. You don't want to dip into, like, depending on your own identity as a teacher. But for me, like, I think a lot of people boarded that line of white saviorism.

If you want me to elaborate, I can. But I think knowing your own boundaries and making sure that you know when that line stops and when you're crossing over. It's kind of the difference between empowering and enabling. Am I empowering these students and equipping them with, you know, resources and language skills that will help them navigate this very, very difficult system, especially now? And again, providing community resources, support networks. I can't; you can't do it all. One person can't do it all. Actually, multiple people can't do it either. Also, making sure that you're you're dipping into those community resources as well.

Euan (30:04)
Definitely. And just to kind of before we take another break, I just wanted to ask you kind of beyond the language classroom: What are the kinds of the most common educational difficulties that refugees and asylum seekers face and what might surprise people that maybe haven't either been teachers or haven't been teachers for very long or cultural navigators, I suppose?

Grace (30:25)I think one thing that I noticed right away is that you're going to see different, especially refugees - they often face educational gaps due to disrupted schooling. I don't think I need to explain that too much. But this impacts, you know, literacy, foundational skills or their foundational skills. Like, I mentioned I've taught students who aren't literate in their first language. So then, how do you make sure that you're equipping them with what they need to learn English? Digital literacy can also be challenging, particularly for older learners. A lot of my clients, students don't use a computer. So making sure you're kind of doing. I mean, I believe needs assessments are important before any class, but we use WhatsApp a lot because a lot of our learners come from other countries where WhatsApp is what they know and they know how to use it.

So you can do a lot of lessons just on the phone. And then, of course, I think we've already talked a lot about cultural differences, and that can bring, especially when you're not teaching one culture. You know, as an ESL teacher, you have students from all different countries a lot of times. And so they can face a lot of educational system like the education system can be a lot different from what they're used to. If they are used to an education system. And that's where you get back into explaining norms and expectations and what that looks like in your classroom.

Euan (31:54)
Yeah, there really is so much, isn't there? And there's all these kinds of life challenges as well, in terms of, you know, it's the little things like being able to navigate the supermarket and being able to, you know, housing and medicine, and just all the… yeah. Yeah. And the cornerstone of all of it is education, of course, and language.

We're going to take a quick break and we'll be right back with Grace Davis.

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Euan (32:53)
So, Grace, I'm just wondering about the kind of I mean, we talked about all the kind of skills you need and the work behind-the-scenes that you should do before you get into the classroom and teach with refugees and asylum seekers. I kind of I'm wondering what it's taught you, because, you know, as much as it's a learning process for your students, it's also got to have been. A learning process from for you as well. And this came out of a particular part of your career once you come back from Spain. And I'm wondering the lessons that you took from this part of your career in Minnesota and schools. Was there anything that you did differently for these students that you've adapted into other areas of your teaching? Were there any lessons that you picked up from then that you've you've made standards in your sort of lesson plan repertoire, if you like? That was a really needlessly wordy way to ask that question. But I think you know what I'm getting at.

Grace (33:46)
I got it. No, that was great. I think, yes, I think I touched on this a little bit earlier, especially if you start attending trauma-informed teaching, attending webinars on trauma-informed teaching or reading books about it. All of that stuff has bled into not just teaching, but how I navigate at my full-time job and how I, you know, navigate as a human as well. And just being aware of that. And. We talked about empathy. So I think teachers, teachers who teach refugees and asylum seekers and definitely English language teachers, we already have a sense of empathy.

We are empathetic. But I think it just continued to, you know, make me a more empathetic person. Definitely adaptable. And, you know, always thinking about what my what I'm bringing into the classroom, as well as what my students are. And the mutual exchange piece, patience and flexibility. We talked about being truly responsive. But I think any of those will bleed across classrooms, not just if you're teaching refugees and asylum seekers. That's helpful for any student who comes into your classroom. But, yeah, I think the biggest one is the trauma-informed teaching. And then I talk a lot about this a lot as a navigator, but the holistic education and a holistic approach. And I mentioned a little bit Maslow's hierarchy of needs.

But we say Maslow's before Bloom, Bloom's taxonomy, and making sure that you know, you know, do your students have a place to sleep at night? Are they fed? Are they dealing with other things at home? And then making sure because if they don't have those needs met, they're not going to be able to learn the alphabet. So I think that I think that that would go into any classroom that you teach, not just working with refugees.

Euan (35:44)
Yeah. That's a great answer, by the way. But to put it in really simple terms, I can't really imagine a situation where teaching vulnerable groups, especially refugees and asylum seekers, doesn't make you a better teacher, doesn't make you a more well-rounded teacher, let alone kind of person.

But I mean, is that a fair assessment? I don't want to. That's no disrespect to. I mean, I feel like all teachers will eventually work with vulnerable groups. There's any kind of vulnerable group. But I think especially when you're working with you're working with people. Who are, you know, that vulnerable and have that little proficiency in either a language or especially English. I mean, surely that's got to that's got to force you to adapt in a certain way. That's going to make you a better teacher. Is that a fair assessment or is that a bit of a leap?

Grace (36:30)
Yeah, absolutely. I don't think that I've ever taught a class that hasn't made me a better person and teacher or worked with, you know, specific groups that hasn't made me a better person.

But that's just me speaking as Grace Davis. I'm not sure if you've come across other people, but I would say that that is definitely a fair assessment.

Euan (36:51)
Yeah. I mean, I'm waiting for the podcast in which someone tells me like, well, actually, that class made me a worse teacher. Yeah. I hated the students. They're all terrible. And honestly, by the end, I forgot most of the vocabulary I'd ever picked up. And yeah, I don't think that's necessarily going to happen.

Grace (37:06)
Because even if you do have classes like that, that are not maybe your most, your favorite memory. For example, you still took something from that. At least for me, some of the worst observations I've had or the worst classes I remember, I remember those. But then I remember, oh, that's what I took from that. And that's how I've changed and become a better teacher.

Euan (37:30)
Yeah, I'm starting to feel really sympathetic to certain supply teachers from the Scottish education system who dealt with some of the classes I was in. I really hope they're OK. (You should check in on them.) I should. I don't. I mean, we had so many. I don't remember many. I don't remember many names, but I definitely remember the sort of kind of taken aback expressions. Yeah. I wish them all the best. I really do. To flip the atmosphere a little bit, because this is a very sensitive time, politically, I think, worldwide. There's going to be a lot of people, I hope, who listen to this are going to feel maybe very despondent about how things are at the moment.

I don't I don't want to get into political leaning. I don't necessarily want to talk about party politics. But I think, you know, I think a lot. A lot of people, regardless of their political persuasion or how they were raised, are going to look at a lot of situations in the world right now and go, that's horrendous. There's surely some way I can help. So to those people who are maybe listening to this and wondering if teaching is something that they can do to improve a person's circumstances, what would you say to them? Because you've been there, you've done that. So what advice would you give them?

Grace (38:43)
If they're considering working with immigrants or refugees, is that your question? Yeah, OK: do it.

I definitely think, if you have the pull to do something, I always recommend you follow that, because worst-case scenario, you get in there and you don't feel like you're equipped to do it. So then maybe it leads to you trying some of the professional development opportunities I mentioned, or it leads you to realize that maybe it's not something for you, but there's another avenue that you can take. So I always am a big fan of recommending that you take the leap and do it. I also think that it's a great way if you feel like you want to get involved and specifically in your community. There are so many nonprofits, nonprofits and community just spaces where people are needed to help out with things like this.

I know last night at our school, we had a meeting all about, you know, for our undocumented students and what this might look like in January and resources to help them out. And so I think that it's such an important time and scary time for a lot of people, again, not to get too political, but this is going to impact a lot more people than you might think. And so if you do want to do something about it, I say go for it.

Euan (40:00)
Absolutely. Well, I mean, I don't necessarily think it's party political to say that, you know, different governments, the government in the country you're from, you know, the incoming government are going to have very different policies in place that will affect a lot of people.

And so I think, you know, if you're going to do it, you're going to have to do it in a way that's going to affect a lot of people. And so I think, you know, if you're going to do it in a way that's going to affect a lot of people, you're going to have to do it in a way that's going to affect a lot of people. And so I think, you know, highlighting resources of all kinds that can be particularly helpful at this moment is a good thing. We've got a bit of a platform to do just now. So Grace, I was wondering if there's any organizations, whether it's volunteering opportunities or whether it's whatever it is. And relating to this subject, if there's anyone you want to share and tell us a little bit about that, that'd be ideal.

Grace (40:50)
Yeah, absolutely. So I'm going to start with ENGEN. That's the B Corp that I teach for on the side. And it's spelled E-N-G-E-N. And they're focused on workforce readiness, specifically for immigrants and refugees. And so it's national in the U. S. and as well as Canada. And so we are focused on another thing that I wanted to mention. That I didn't bring up earlier is some immigrants and refugees actually a lot come here with their own background as well in their own master's degree sometime. And so just because they are an immigrant or refugee doesn't necessarily mean that they don't. I know we did talk a lot about students who might not be literate in their native languages, but there are a lot who are. And we are wasting talent a lot of times.

So ENGEN is a platform and a program I recommend specifically to those around the U. S. and Canada. Who are working with immigrants and refugees because their English platform is focused on. For example, if I have a client who wants to be a nurse, they focus on nursing as well as English. And so they're building those skills in the career that they want. Lots of different workshops on career readiness, cover letters, resumes, stuff like that. And so I just think NGEN definitely gets a shout out because they're doing the work. Then I know I recommended. Depending on where you live, look out for local organizations because they do exist. You just have to to look for them here where I live. I always have to give a shout out to where I work.

Advance. It's an education consortium. Frank Gerdeman created this program and it's incredible. Holistic case management, personalized pathways, as well as Lake Tahoe Community College. That's where we're housed. And I just feel like there, we as a community are always trying to help. Equip our students and clients with the resources that they need. Catholic Charities is another one that I've heard of and worked with. We have a local family resource center that is doing the most. So, again, look for those in your own state or city, wherever you live. And then there was one more resource that I didn't mention and I had planned on mentioning. I'm not sure where in the podcast, but the ILRC red cards. Have you heard of these? (I don't know.)

OK, so this specifically, if you have your own ESL classroom, these are cards that have students' rights. If ICE were to come or, you know, they get into trouble or get pulled over, for example, they know their rights and it's in their native language on the back and in English on the front. And that's another example of, yeah, another example of equipping people with and that's for citizens, non-citizens, whoever needs it. It's important to know your rights. And I know right now people are stressing. Knowledge is power and making sure that, you know, your EL civics and all of that.

Euan (43:50)
Perfect. I think that's a brilliant place to leave things there, Grace. But just finally, where can people find you and hear more about your career?

Grace (43:59)
So lately, I am basically available on LinkedIn. You can find me, Grace Davis, and I'm happy to connect with anyone and brainstorm, build connections. I also have my own website, English with Grace dot org. And you can reach me on there. I am taking a break from social media. I haven't been on social media for a while, so I've paused most of my accounts. But if I if I ever get back on, it's usually English with Grace or English with Grace D sometimes.

Euan (44:30)
Oh, great. I totally understand. (Thank you. Yeah.) Yeah. It's yeah. Although I do, I do occasionally argue with people about, well, you call it, soccer. But anyway. Anyway, that's irrelevant. And that's for that's for another podcast somewhere else. Grace, it's been as it was before. It's been really illuminating talking to you. Thank you so much for coming back on the podcast. And yeah, all the best. All the best in the future.

Grace (44:57)
Yeah, I was honoured to be invited back. Thank you. And I look forward to your coming on the English with Grace podcast.

Euan (45:03)
We need to book that. We need to book that. Right, I'll speak to you later on!